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Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

Tune in to sanity FM

Do you honestly believe the French and English unions are going to force the players to switch clubs just to save the ERC?

What you are saying is such complete rubbish I can scarecly believe someone wrote it. So when the HEC starts up next year that all the England internationals at Tigers are just going to up sticks and move to where? Nottingham? On about 10% wages they currently on.

Force doesn't come into it. The incentives Rugby World Cup. A true European Cup, Six Nations and Summer Tours to the Southern Hemisphere are all with the IRB Unions and ERC. The players will willingly go where ever top class rugby goes. PRL are on a hiding to nothing and will fall into line once they've had their very public little paddy, there's too much for them to lose.

No one is going to throw them out of rugby. The bottom line though is that if they want to own a rugby union club and be part of rugby union then they have to follow Union's rules. you buy a house in NZ then you have to follow NZ law when you get there. Same with buying into rugby union.

If they walk away then they will do it of their own accord and the resulting player drain back to union will be their's to deal with. This isn't rocket science. The cause of it all isn't rocket science. PRL sold tv rights to BT for 150 odd million quid but it didn't belong to them and the only way they can pocket the cash if if they somehow find a way to break away from ERC. Only the Pro 12 Unions, FFR and the irb won't let them and the RFU are sitting on the fence waiting for their bodies to hit collective pubity so they can grow a pair. That is the bottom line. PRL have lost. We've just got to listen to them cry their eyes out and stamp their feet for a few more weeks and then it'll be business as usual again.
 
Clubs have to agree to release their players for the extra games....

Only the RFU would be badly over a barrel. The FFR can mandate the fixtures be moved to accomodate. Obviously the FIR and Celtic unions have no real problems.

With a "home" RWC coming up, what English player wouldn't raise a ruckus with the PRL?

What Scottish/Welsh/Italian player wouldn't look to move to a more accommodating club/league?
 
I noticed to change your post and you do obviously know nothing about European law if you think IRB regulations take precedence.
I also notice that you are totally confused between the various European bodies as La hague has nothing to do in the process. It is the trade comission and the european court of justice (court of first instance) based in Luxembourg which are likely to get involved, neither the ICC based in La hague nor the European Court of Human Rights based in Strasbourg.

If the IRB tries to stop the new cup from happening, it is going to be a breach of the law.

The clubs must follow IRB regulations (rules, equity, doping control...) as long as these regulations are not meant to stop the event from happening in the first place

And BTW, a lot of unlawful behaviors keep going in multiple areas until somebody has the guts to challenge them, the fact that they have been unchallenged so far does not mean they are lawful (ex Bossman).

And yes the European Court can ask the IRB to withdraw their regulations extremely easily but the process is costly and time consuming, whether this story will go to court is anybody's guess.

You still don't get it do you?

The iRB is not in the business of running domestic or club rugby competitions. Its not in the business of negotiating television rights for such competitions either. Its doesn't even directly run the Rugby World Cup (that task is delegated the RWC Ltd).

What the iRB does is manage the overall game worldwide. IRB Regulations are a framework to ensure that the game is administered in a uniform manner everywhere it is played throughout the world. Specifically, the contentious (to you) Regulation 13 is there to prevent EXACTLY what you mistakenly think it causes. It exists for the purpose of preventing any individuals or groups from abusing or misusing a dominant market position for their own gain at the expense of other interested parties. Its does this by placing private individuals, groups and other rugby bodies under the stewardship of the National Union responsible for the game within their own territories. Regulation 13 doesn't prohibit organisations like PRL from negotiating TV rights, its simply there to make sure that they have the National Unions permission to do so.

Regulation 13 was put in place in 1996 to prevent any possible repeat of the near disaster that took place in the 1995 "Rugby War", when the World Rugby Corporation, under the control of Kerry Packer, tried to create a rebel rugby "circus". Without Regulation 13, there would be utter mayhem as dozens of different "fly-by-night" organisations vie for broadcast deals. Anyone with enough money could simply "buy the game of rugby". In Australia, Rugby League had a similar occurrence with the "Super League" in 1997, a rebel competition that arose after a failed attempt by Rupert Murdoch to buy the TV rights off the NSWRL

In acting the way they did, PRL are in fact in breach both of iRB Regulation 13 and Article 82 EC, in that they sold rights that were not theirs to sell and they did so without the approval of the RFU. They also acted in grossly bad faith, negotiating with BT (starting long before they gave notice of their withdrawal from the HC) while they were supposedly still negotiating with the ERC. This is precisely the sort of dirty dealing and shonkey business practice that Regulation 13 is supposed to prevent, and which is supposed to be illegal under Article 82 EC. I think you fail to understand that iRB Regulations and European Law are working together here, NOT against each other.

None of what has been going on has anything to do with the alleged unfair advantage of qualification systems for the Celtic Nations. It has little, if anything to do with revenue distributions either; those are just convenient smokescreens to obfuscate what this is really about; two, and only two things... power and control.

The club owners want total and absolute control over all aspects of European domestic rugby. They want to completely shut the National Unions out of the picture, so that they have absolute power over their players. If they are allowed to succeed, it will be the greatest catastrophe for the game of Rugby Union since The Great Divide of 1895. The game will be set back by a decade. Competitions like the Six Nations and the European Nations Cup will be seriously affected as National Unions are forced to pay enormous prices to use their players (if they can even get them at all) for international competition. Smaller nations will certainly have to beg for access to their players.
 
True enough but European law takes precedence over IRB regulations.

The IRB regulation 13 is in absolute full breach of the law.
"REGULATION 13
13.2 No Rugby Body, Club or Person or any combination thereof may negotiate or enter into or benefit from any contract for the grant of any Broadcasting Rights in respect of any Match or Matches except with the express written consent of the Union within whose territorial jurisdiction such Match is or Matches are to be played, such consent to be in the
absolute discretion of the Union"


National and/or international sports associations are normally the bodies that adopt sporting rules, which sport clubs/teams and athletes need to adhere to. Sporting rules adopted by national or international sports associations may constitute agreements or decisions by undertakings or associations of undertakings within the meaning of Article 81(1) EC. Such sporting rules, like any other decisions or agreements, are prohibited if they have as their object or effect the restriction or distortion of competition within the common market and affect trade between Member States

Article 82 EC prohibits any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the common market or in a substantial part of it in so far as it may affect trade between Member States. For the purposes of applying this provision, the relevant market must be determined. As mentioned earlier, sports associations usually have practical monopolies in a given sport and may thus normally be considered dominant in the market of the organisation of sport events under Article 82 EC. Even where a sporting association is not active on a given market, it may be considered to hold a dominant position if it operates on that market through its members (e.g., sport clubs/teams).


erwanseb, the underlined part there. Isn't that what the PRL/LNR have done!? They've used their position to restrict the Pro12 teams from the English and French markets basically. They're even so bold as to claim ownership of the English and French markets. They're the ones acting illegally. They signed a contract with BT which included matches with foreign teams and then wouldn't even show the contract to any Pro12 team or union. That wouldn't look good in court.


They've not just done a number on the Celtalians. All the HEC fans in Europe want it to continue. English fans and French fans included!!!
 
You still don't get it do you?

The iRB is not in the business of running domestic or club rugby competitions.

Try to explain that to the trade comissioner. The veto power on cross border competition is in violation of European law, a regulator cannot interfere in any commercial aspect. The TV rights are a middle ground, the EC has considered a co-ownership at best but as I have no insider knowledge about the BT contract so I can't really make any assessment there. What clearly is forbidden is joint selling except under specific circumstances.


IRB Regulations are a framework to ensure that the game is administered in a uniform manner everywhere it is played throughout the world.

Yes but they cannot have any market or commercial power, this resides only with the clubs.

The FIA was condemned a few years ago for exactly the same reasons. The FIA was forbidding its members to particpate to other events outside the FIA, the EC hammered them for that.

The Commission closed the case after having reached a settlement in 2001.[46] The settlement provided in particular that FIA would:

  • limit its role to that of a sport regulator without influence over the commercial exploitation of the sport and thus removing any conflict of interest (through the appointment by FIA of a "commercial rights holder" for 100 years in exchange for a one-off fee);
  • guarantee access to motor sport to any racing organisation and to no longer prevent teams to participate in and circuit owners to organize other races provided the requisite safety standards are met;
  • waive its TV rights or transfer them to the promoters concerned; and
    remove the anticompetitive clauses from the agreements between FOA and broadcasters.
 
erwanseb, the underlined part there. Isn't that what the PRL/LNR have done!? They've used their position to restrict the Pro12 teams from the English and French markets basically. They're even so bold as to claim ownership of the English and French markets. They're the ones acting illegally. They signed a contract with BT which included matches with foreign teams and then wouldn't even show the contract to any Pro12 team or union. That wouldn't look good in court.


They've not just done a number on the Celtalians. All the HEC fans in Europe want it to continue. English fans and French fans included!!!


You actually do have a point, there could be a case of dominant position if PRL and LNR push too far their advantage. As always , the devil is in the detail but equal participation and equal revenue sharing in the new cup between the three league is unlikely to trigger any anti-trust case. That is more or less the offer on the table.
 
a regulator cannot interfere in any commercial aspect.

Rubbish.

UEFA have stopped various teams competing in neighbouring leagues for years (while admitting others when it suits).


Now, onto the FIA/FOM issue:



  • FIA has amended its regulations to strengthen the rights of motor sport organisers, circuit owners and participants, and to make it clear that FIA will act impartially as between all forms of motor sport for which it is the regulator;
[For which it is the regulator. PRL can go on their merry way. The SRU are Edinburgh/Glasgow and the IRFU are the provinces. FFR have legal protection and the FIR fund the Italian teams strongly. The Welsh are the only outlier.]<for which="" it="" is="" the="" regulator="" -="" so="" irb="" could="" opt="" not="" to="" regulate="" prl,="" but="" of="" course="" prevent="" players="" from="" playing="" both="" "codes"="" at="" same="" time.="">


  • FIA will no longer have a commercial interest in the success of Formula One and the new rules will remove any obstacle to other motor sports series competing with Formula One;
[The IRB has no commercial interest in the HEC. Or no moreso than FIFA have in the FA cup]<the irb="" already="" as="" no="" commercial="" interest="" in="" the="" hec.="" any="" competition="" competing="" with="" hec="" would="" be="" free="" to="" do="" so="" -="" same="" way="" a="" soccer="" world="" cup="" does="" not="" necessarily="" have="" organised="" by="" fifa="">


  • FIA will retain its rights over its championships and the use of the "FIA" name and Trade Marks but has removed from its rules any claim over the broadcasting rights to events that it authorises and has agreed to waive any claim to broadcasting rights under the relevant clauses in the Formula One agreement (the "Concorde Agreement");
[IRB does not claim to have TV rights to the HEC. The unions, who organise it, do.]<the irb="" doesn't="" have="" any="" broadcasting="" rights.="" the="" unions,="" which="" organise="" hec,="" do.="">

  • FIA has made it clear that its decisions will always be reasoned, and that those decisions may be challenged before national courts;
[Good luck to the LNR trying that in France!]<good luck="" with="" the="" lnr="" getting="" away="" that="" in="" france="">

  • The FOA group of companies has sold its interest in all forms of motor sport including Rallying and will therefore only have an interest in Formula One (Mr Ecclestone will no longer handle FIA's promotional affairs and will also reduce his role in FIA in other ways);
[The poison dwarf does not exist in the IRB - a completely different structure too.]<very different="" structure="" -="" the="" poison="" dwarf="" does="" not="" exist="" within="" irb="">

  • FOA has agreed to limit the duration of its free-to-air broadcasting contracts (to five years in the case of host broadcasters and three years in other cases) and has removed provisions which penalised broadcasters which wanted to broadcast other forms of open wheeler racing.
[Not applicable here.]<not applicable="" here.=""></not></very></good></the></the></for>
 
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Pro12 unions.

Completely different structure from the Aviva Premiership. Something PRL could do with bearing in mind.

Unions and clubs according to the article. I don't mind though. Either way the door to break away celtic clubs joining the french and english has been slammed shut and PRL have run out of wriggle room.

The only slim chance is SA now and that's so fantasticaly unlikely I feel daft even typing it.
 
Unions and clubs according to the article. I don't mind though. Either way the door to break away celtic clubs joining the french and english has been slammed shut and PRL have run out of wriggle room.

The only slim chance is SA now and that's so fantasticaly unlikely I feel daft even typing it.

Thing is, There is no mention of ERC / Heineken Cup in there statements. Only that they will only compete in a European Cup with backing of the Unions.
 
In 2005, the Welsh Regions signed up to play the PRL in the Anglo-Welsh Cup, and due to a perceived misunderstanding over fixture dates, were expelled from the Celtic League by the Irish & Scots. Sanity prevailed and the ban was lifted and the Welsh joined the English in their own seperate Cup competition. (Usually used as a development system, but not contractually so).

For those who say the PRL & Top14 cannot create a comp for them alone....the precedent has been set. They gave notice to the HC which they were contractually obliged to do. To prevent this from going ahead will create a precedent which overides all that has gone before. IMO that won't happen.

Now the way i see it, the Anglo-French Cup can go ahead alongside the Anglo-Welsh Cup, and the Rabo12 can play in the HC.

The question is, will the Rabo12 teams as individuals or Union collectives or as a whole, accept the invite by the Franglais? (again a precedent has been set by the original comp which became the HC, as individual nations joined it seperately over time). This could also happen with the Anglo-French cup at inception or over time.

The Celtic & Italian Unions has said it wont participate unless IRB approved.
The IRB has said it wont approve unless the Unions want it.

This smacks of passing the buck to me, but in doing so, leaves the way open for any Union backed side to join the Franglais by choice.

The unknown is the FFR and the Top14. (IMO French PM Hollande showed a few weeks ago that opening your gob and committing to a stance can backfire).
Has the FFR jumped the gun by setting itself up against it's own bread winner?

As Rats says, we can all speculate and even postulate, but IMO the HC as we know it is dead, and it's all going to boil down to who blinks first and who needs some cash.
 
As for TV rights and who can negotiate what with whom and when blah blah blah.

IMO the deal cut between BT and the PRL probably comes in various values.
The fact that there has been no challenge to the BT coverage of the Aviva so far means that that deal is kosher.
If the Franglais goes ahead with a new comp, i dont see why BT cannot cover it, and no doubt the PRL & Top14 have already agreed the divvy. It would not contravene the Sky deal that the ERC has for a HC that may or may not go ahead.

No one on this site is privy to any of the contracts involved, and so are purely speculating as to who has to do what by whose Law/Regs.
Carry on though....i can't wait to see where all the egg is gonna land. :D
 
Do the IRFU want this to go nuclear? If there's no European competition, they can't afford to fund Connacht any more. Might be an excuse to finally get rid of them as they tried a decade ago......
 
For those who say the PRL & Top14 cannot create a comp for them alone....the precedent has been set.

The question is... what are you smoking?

How is a competition that was agreed and sanction by the RFU and WRU the same as a proposed competition which will receive at most, the sanction of a single union (the RFU)?


As I pointed out earlier - the unions have simple avenues to generate way more cash than any McCafferty wet dream.
 
Do the IRFU want this to go nuclear? If there's no European competition, they can't afford to fund Connacht any more. Might be an excuse to finally get rid of them as they tried a decade ago......

Course they can. The HEC doesn't form an overwhelming part of their income.

Again, as said earlier - the unions need more cash and want to dump the PRL on its ass? Make the 6N home and away.
 
Course they can. The HEC doesn't form an overwhelming part of their income.
While that is true, there'll inevitably be a certain amount of belt tightening. Thomond Park is still being paid off, there's a shortfall of circa €20m in anticipated earnings from advanced seat sales in Lansdowne Road, central contracts have been cut back and there has been a reduction in NIQ players for the provinces. Cutting Connacht could be an easy out for them. The story has already been leaked about a budget overspend there and their CEO has walked. I'd hate to see Connacht culled and think it would be a move equally as short sighted as the LNR/PRL proposal but the IRFU have precedent in trying to get them off their books.
 
Course they can. The HEC doesn't form an overwhelming part of their income.

Again, as said earlier - the unions need more cash and want to dump the PRL on its ass? Make the 6N home and away.

Yes. Without the HC, there are nine spare weeks in the calendar. More than enough to fit in an extra five rounds of the Six Nations. That will bring in more cash for the individual National Unions than the Heineken Cup ever would, and further marginalise an already isolated PRL.

That would also leave another four weeks spare. I wonder if the Celtic Nations, say Ireland, would like to play, say, a three test home series against a top SH nation such as New Zealand during the AIs instead of just one match. Ireland v New Zealand, first test at Aviva Stadium, second test at Croke Park, and third test back at Aviva Stadium. Imagine how much that would swell the coffers at the IRFU. Three packed houses at those venues total 186,000. Not sure how much tickets would sell for, but at a pure guess I would think an average of about say â'¬60.

If so, that is a cool gross of over â'¬11m
 
While that is true, there'll inevitably be a certain amount of belt tightening. Thomond Park is still being paid off, there's a shortfall of circa €20m in anticipated earnings from advanced seat sales in Lansdowne Road, central contracts have been cut back and there has been a reduction in NIQ players for the provinces. Cutting Connacht could be an easy out for them. The story has already been leaked about a budget overspend there and their CEO has walked. I'd hate to see Connacht culled and think it would be a move equally as short sighted as the LNR/PRL proposal but the IRFU have precedent in trying to get them off their books.


No chance of Connacht being culled. The main provinces will just have to get rid of their foreign players, especially the expensive ones. The provinces would still be competitive and you'd have more Irish players getting games for Schmidt to choose.
 

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