Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[erwanseb]

"He has warned the national unions from interfering, and also indicated that they and the International Rugby Board (IRB) could face court action if they attempt to stop the Rugby Champions Cup."

Laughable sabre-rattling

The only group that will face legal action will be the PRL and the LNR for a breach of contract with SKY TV as well as a direct breach of iRB regulation which they are subject to.

Bloody nonsense, the sky deal was signed after French and English clubs gave notice and is solely between ERC Ltd and Sky. The only agreement that the PRL and TOP 14 have signed is the continuation of a centralized ERC TV deal rather than each league negotiating its own contract, which does not mean they have to be part of this deal or of the ERC.

And the IRB is not above the law, it would not be the first time that a sport organization has to bend the knee. European law totally transformed football with the Bossman case lost by the all powerful UEFA for restriction of trade.
European law also explicitly forbids any quotas based on nationality although there are some alternate ways to go around.

15 years ago, UEFA had to fight the same kind of battle with the football clubs which were threatening to leave the champions league and create a cup of their own but UEFA was clever enough to understand the changed reality, that they did not hold the economic power anymore. So were too the football clubs , understanding the legitimacy and branding power of the UEFA frame work to avoid the mess prevailing in boxing with multiple federations.

My guess is that the case against an IRB veto could be based on the notion of cross border competition, borders as such do no exist anymore in Europe. Economic borders have been obliterated and there can be no restriction of trade (product, people and services) through borders inside the european union, any competition between english and french clubs could therefore be considered as domestic european competition which then does not require IRB approval.

The IRB and the unions still can't grapple the idea that economic power is not theirs and still behave as a top-down organization rather than a facilitator.

 

[erwanseb]

There won't be the European competition McCafferty promised BT.

The BT deal has not been made public, as far as I know. A few details have leaked but it remains difficult to have a reliable overview of the contract.

In any case, this deal was signed after the PRL had given notice and as both parties knew the ERC exit would be bloody, long hours of drafting were probably necessary.
I imagine they are some multiple opt out clauses on both sides, the purpose was essentially for the PRL to negotiate with a loaded gun
and for BT to position itself as the prime candidate to broadcast future european competition but I would guess it is currently a "soft contract" providing some leverage to the PRL.
At least, it seems the PRL has carefully planned each move since giving notice while the ERC has done absolutely nothing, probably too cocky and arrogant to stare into the abyss.

 

[smartcooky]

Bloody nonsense, the sky deal was signed after French and English clubs gave notice and is solely between ERC Ltd and Sky. The only agreement that the PRL and TOP 14 have signed is the continuation of a centralized ERC TV deal rather than each league negotiating its own contract, which does not mean they have to be part of this deal or of the ERC.

Actually, as a part of the ERC (they haven't left the ERC yet) they are bound by any deal that the ERC negotiates. McCafferty was there when the Sky deal was signed FFS!

And the IRB is not above the law, it would not be the first time that a sport organization has to bend the knee. European law totally transformed football with the Bossman case lost by the all powerful UEFA for restriction of trade. European law also explicitly forbids any quotas based on nationality although there are some alternate ways to go around.

The Clubs are part of their National Union, and their National Unions are subject to iRB regulations, therefore the Clubs and their organisations are also subject to iRB Regulations. Without being a part, they would NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN THEIR COMPETITIONS. They would have no referees or other officials and no judicial system. As such, they would be operating outside of the legal framework of the iRB's Regulations and Laws of the Game, therefore, for health and safety reasons alone, their players would be uninsurable.

15 years ago, UEFA had to fight the same kind of battle with the football clubs which were threatening to leave the champions league and create a cup of their own but UEFA was clever enough to understand the changed reality, that they did not hold the economic power anymore. So were too the football clubs , understanding the legitimacy and branding power of the UEFA frame work to avoid the mess prevailing in boxing with multiple federations.

I'm glad you brought that up. FIFA actually runs Football world wide, right from the World Cup down to Little Johnny's Primary School 3rd XI. When FIFA says jump, everybody jumps; UEFA, The Premier League, The FA, The Bundesliga, La Liga. Everybody! Without exception! If you don't believe this, go ask the Greek FA!!!

My guess is that the case against an IRB veto could be based on the notion of cross border competition, borders as such do no exist anymore in Europe. Economic borders have been obliterated and there can be no restriction of trade (product, people and services) through borders inside the european union, any competition between english and french clubs could therefore be considered as domestic european competition which then does not require IRB approval.

Well, you guess wrong. Cross-borders has nothing to do with the international political borders, it has to to with boundaries of National Unions. Each National Union controls what happens within its own "territory". That is enshrined in iRB Regulations and it is fully recognised, with precedent, by European Court at the Hague. Anything else would be utter mayhem. How else do your think Marius Tincu was able to get a FRENCH court to overturn his ERC 18 week ban for eye gouging, so that he could continue to play in the Top 14 despite being banned for all Heineken Cup matches.

The IRB and the unions still can't grapple the idea that economic power is not theirs and still behave as a top-down organization rather than a facilitator.

They don't have to grapple with that idea because that idea is WRONG! The power IS theirs; they own and control the game world wide and they, and the unions can put a stop to this farcical competition. If PRL tries going to court, they won't have a legal leg to stand on.

The iRB should be top down controllers of what goes on in rugby. I would rather have people I trust, and who have the good of Rugby Union at heart, such as the iRB, running the game, rather than some arrogant asshole like McCafferty, whose only concern is his own bank balance.

 

[McTallshort]

Dont know why this debate is still going on the French and English clubs have given notice to leave the HC and that's it the HC is finished, get over it.

If the new European competition doesnt go ahead next year then there will be no European competition next year, for all the bluster from the IRB, the now defunct ERC and the other unions having no European rugby would be a disaster so are they really going to try and block a new tournament backed up by big TV deals? No of course they wont.

You can all bang on about whos in charge and bemoan the so called greedy English chairman and shout about how the Irish regional system it so great and AP rugby is boring blah blah blah blah but the truth of the matter is the HC is over, a new competition has to be formed and to imagine that the 2 most commercially valuable leagues in the world wont be part of that in inconceivable. What are you going to have a Pro 12 HC? wonder what the qualification process will be for that.....

 

[gaston le gaff]

What are you going to have a Pro 12 HC? wonder what the qualification process will be for that.....

Easy if you can pass or kick a ball your in, very similar to present qualification regs!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Amiga500]

If the new European competition doesnt go ahead next year then there will be no European competition next year, for all the bluster from the IRB, the now defunct ERC and the other unions having no European rugby would be a disaster so are they really going to try and block a new tournament backed up by big TV deals? No of course they wont.

Of course they will block it. Or bypass it through divide and conquer*.

The HEC comprises but a small part of rugby union.

There is much more at stake here than a few quid on a bank balance. The unions see that. The PRL and LNR do not.


*i.e., if the FFR approach, say, Stade Francais, and ask them "you wanna be a part of this HEC? There is a guaranteed £800K+ in it for you."

Can a club like Stade Francais turn that down right now? Would their neighbours looking on allow them to gain that financial advantage without a response?

[The FFR have the legal power to mandate fixtures. They could organise the calendar in a way that the RFU simply cannot.]

 

[smartcooky]

Dont know why this debate is still going on the French and English clubs have given notice to leave the HC and that's it the HC is finished, get over it.

If the new European competition doesnt go ahead next year then there will be no European competition next year, for all the bluster from the IRB, the now defunct ERC and the other unions having no European rugby would be a disaster so are they really going to try and block a new tournament backed up by big TV deals? No of course they wont.

You can all bang on about whos in charge and bemoan the so called greedy English chairman and shout about how the Irish regional system it so great and AP rugby is boring blah blah blah blah but the truth of the matter is the HC is over, a new competition has to be formed and to imagine that the 2 most commercially valuable leagues in the world wont be part of that in inconceivable. What are you going to have a Pro 12 HC? wonder what the qualification process will be for that.....

Those of us who are old enough to remember 1995 will remember that neither England nor Scotland were involved in the first Heineken Cup. The English refused to be a part of it (still coming to terms with the fact that England was part of Europe perhaps) and the Scots weren’t even invited. It consisted of only 12 teams; three French, three Welsh and three Irish teams, two Italian teams and a Romanian team.

There is no reason why they could not go back tro a similar format. The deal is already in place with SkyTV; they either have that or nothing. Why not reduce the HC to 16 teams, include 10 teams from the Pro12, three from Romania and three from Georgia.

 

[Amiga500]

What are you going to have a Pro 12 HC? wonder what the qualification process will be for that.....

Nah, prob just dust off the old Celtic Cup - maybe invite a few other teams to play (see divide and conquer) and fill the fixture list out that way.

OK, its not gonna generate anything like the same revenue as the HEC; but its better than the alternative.

Easy if you can pass or kick a ball your in, very similar to present qualification regs!!!!!!!!!!!

Cry me a river.

If you still believe the arguments revolve around the qualification process, you are an absolute fool.

 

[Groundhog]

You can act like victims all you want but each of these competitions will be separately repetitive torrid **** and the leagues separating is bad for the fans and bad for the entertainment factor of European rugby.

 

[McTallshort]

Of course they will block it. Or bypass it through divide and conquer*.

The HEC comprises but a small part of rugby union.

There is much more at stake here than a few quid on a bank balance. The unions see that. The PRL and LNR do not.


*i.e., if the FFR approach, say, Stade Francais, and ask them "you wanna be a part of this HEC? There is a guaranteed £800K+ in it for you."

Can a club like Stade Francais turn that down right now? Would their neighbours looking on allow them to gain that financial advantage without a response?

[The FFR have the legal power to mandate fixtures. They could organise the calendar in a way that the RFU simply cannot.]

So they block it and there is no European rugby...yeah right.

Why would the FFR do that? What have the FFR to gain by making offers like that? If they really really wanted to save the HEC they would have made those offers a year ago.

 

[McTallshort]

Those of us who are old enough to remember 1995 will remember that neither England nor Scotland were involved in the first Heineken Cup. The English refused to be a part of it (still coming to terms with the fact that England was part of Europe perhaps) and the Scots weren't even invited. It consisted of only 12 teams; three French, three Welsh and three Irish teams, two Italian teams and a Romanian team.

There is no reason why they could not go back tro a similar format. The deal is already in place with SkyTV; they either have that or nothing. Why not reduce the HC to 16 teams, include 10 teams from the Pro12, three from Romania and three from Georgia.

HA HA yeah good luck with that!!!!

 

[McTallshort]

You can act like victims all you want but each of these competitions will be separately repetitive torrid **** and the leagues separating is bad for the fans and bad for the entertainment factor of European rugby.

But thats the reality of the situation, can hate it all you want the boat has sailed

 

[smartcooky]

So they block it and there is no European rugby...yeah right.

Why would the FFR do that? What have the FFR to gain by making offers like that? If they really really wanted to save the HEC they would have made those offers a year ago.

There is no doubt that Top 14 clubs will not be allowed to join. Pierre Camou has made that very clear.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/simon-thomas-could-rugby-champions-6082327


[TEXTAREA]"...everything hinged on the stance taken by the FFR and on Sunday night the French Federation stood up to be counted in uncompromising fashion. In a strongly-worded statement, they made it crystal clear that they were throwing their weight behind ERC and the existing Heineken Cup structure.
They said no competition involving French clubs could be organised without their agreement and that they would only sanction ones supported by the Unions which make up ERC.
But the best was saved until last, as they concluded by describing the announcement of the new Rugby Champions Cup as “irrelevant and inappropriateâ€.
Seldom can a comment have been more withering, more dismissive.
The breakaway boys had been French fried.
It makes me think that everything I’ve been hearing about FFR President Pierre Camou over the last couple of weeks is true.
A hard-nosed former front five forward and a strong establishment figure, he doesn’t sound like a man to be messed with.
The word being put about from within the ERC camp was that he would never allow his Top 14 clubs to enter into any new cross-border competition.
Tellingly, Camou was away on holiday when the crisis erupted. Now it looks like he’s back in his office!
Either way, what is clear is the Rugby Champions Cup has suffered a major blow at its moment of inception.
It now cannot go ahead with official sanction, which puts a whole new perspective on things."[/TEXTAREA]

If the Top 14 clubs defy their National Union then ALL the players who are involved, from all nations in the the rebel competition can kiss goodbye to their international careers, and with in, any chance of playing in RWC2015.

 

[McTallshort]

There is no doubt that Top 14 clubs will not be allowed to join. Pierre Camou has made that very clear.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/simon-thomas-could-rugby-champions-6082327


[TEXTAREA]"...everything hinged on the stance taken by the FFR and on Sunday night the French Federation stood up to be counted in uncompromising fashion. In a strongly-worded statement, they made it crystal clear that they were throwing their weight behind ERC and the existing Heineken Cup structure.
They said no competition involving French clubs could be organised without their agreement and that they would only sanction ones supported by the Unions which make up ERC.
But the best was saved until last, as they concluded by describing the announcement of the new Rugby Champions Cup as "irrelevant and inappropriate".
Seldom can a comment have been more withering, more dismissive.
The breakaway boys had been French fried.
It makes me think that everything I've been hearing about FFR President Pierre Camou over the last couple of weeks is true.
A hard-nosed former front five forward and a strong establishment figure, he doesn't sound like a man to be messed with.
The word being put about from within the ERC camp was that he would never allow his Top 14 clubs to enter into any new cross-border competition.
Tellingly, Camou was away on holiday when the crisis erupted. Now it looks like he's back in his office!
Either way, what is clear is the Rugby Champions Cup has suffered a major blow at its moment of inception.
It now cannot go ahead with official sanction, which puts a whole new perspective on things."[/TEXTAREA]

If the Top 14 clubs defy their National Union then ALL the players who are involved, from all nations in the the rebel competition can kiss goodbye to their international careers, and with in, any chance of playing in RWC2015.

Rubbish, you really think the Union will not select its best players because the clubs have left the HEC? What are they going to do only pick players from the 2nd tier to spite the clubs yeah thats going happen.....

The FFR can back the HEC all they want the Top 14 served notice last year thats it they are out.

 

[erwanseb]

Actually, as a part of the ERC (they haven't left the ERC yet) they are bound by any deal that the ERC negotiates. McCafferty was there when the Sky deal was signed FFS!

.

What's the hell "as a part of" means, answer: nothing. Explain why would a company C (the PRL) be bound by a contract signed by company A (Sky) and B (ERC).
ERC Ltd is a private company, its dealing and decisions are not binding for any other business entity but themselves. PRL and LNR have given official notice in June 2012, therefore the contract was properly signed in full knowledge of their non participation. It does not break any law, the HC may continue without PRL and LNR involvement, period.


You obviously know nothing about European law in general and articles 81 and 82 EC in particular, the FIA ruling awas very interersting indeed as it practically prohibits an association from being both a regulator and commercial exploiter of a sport.

The following rules represent a higher likelihood of problems concerning compliance with Articles 81 EC and/or 82 EC, although some of them could be justified under certain conditions under Article 81(3) EC:

• Rules protecting sports associations from competition;
• Rules excluding legal challenges of decisions by sports associations before national courts if the denial of access to ordinary courts facilitates anti-competitive agreements or conduct;
• Rules concerning nationality clauses for sport clubs/teams;
• Rules regulating the transfer of athletes between clubs (except transfer windows); and
• Rules regulating professions ancillary to sport (e.g., football players' agents)

 

[McTallshort]

What's the hell "as a part of" means, answer: nothing. Explain why would a company C (the PRL) be bound by a contract signed by company A (Sky) and B (ERC).
ERC Ltd is a private company, its dealing and decisions are not binding for any other business entity but themselves. PRL and LNR have given official notice in June 2012, therefore the contract was properly signed in full knowledge of their non participation. It does not break any law, the HC may continue without PRL and LNR involvement, period.


You obviously know nothing about European law in general and articles 81 and 82 EC in particular, the FIA ruling awas very interersting indeed as it practically prohibits an association from being both a regulator and commercial exploiter of a sport.

The following rules represent a higher likelihood of problems concerning compliance with Articles 81 EC and/or 82 EC, although some of them could be justified under certain conditions under Article 81(3) EC:

• Rules protecting sports associations from competition;
• Rules excluding legal challenges of decisions by sports associations before national courts if the denial of access to ordinary courts facilitates anti-competitive agreements or conduct;
• Rules concerning nationality clauses for sport clubs/teams;
• Rules regulating the transfer of athletes between clubs (except transfer windows); and
• Rules regulating professions ancillary to sport (e.g., football players' agents)

Dont bother mate they still havnt grasped the situation yet, they still believe the not at all self serving unions are going to somehow force the LNR and PRL into a cup they gave notice to over a year ago just to save the Irish based ERC and that the unions are going to stop their own clubs starting their own competition again to save the Irish based ERC.

HEC is over lads time to face reality

 

[Packman]

Rubbish, you really think the Union will not select its best players because the clubs have left the HEC? What are they going to do only pick players from the 2nd tier to spite the clubs yeah thats going happen.....

The FFR can back the HEC all they want the Top 14 served notice last year thats it they are out.

Tallshort,

you (and the LNR, or anyone come to that) are not taking the players into account. They will want to play in the world cup. If the LNR are dumb enough to get backed into a corner that doesn't include international rugby then watch the player exodus begin. LNR will be left with 14 Toulons packed with over 30's.

its all bluff, look at this desperate sound bite from PRL

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8941026,00.html

Pro 12 have been happily ticking over on TV rights since their inception. even if the worst comes to the absolute worst (and it won't, PRL are going to cave in any day now, Bruce Craig sounds like he's walking about with smelly brown pants on right now.) and we end up with the pro 12 sides playing bristol, plymouth and co, SKY will still pay for it because it'll be a slap in the face to BT and Bristol and co will be boosted by as many england stars who can get out of their contract because they want to play for England in England's rugby world cup. and the England players stuck in their contracts will be striking and sueing and ripping PRL to shreds. how pleased are BT going to be if their prem and Anglo french games don't go ahead due to ****** off test match stars who've seen their international careers go up in smoke just because PRL sold BT tv rights they didn't own??? PRL screwed up. you can't sell tv rights that are not yours to sell. They are incompetant. Mark McCatherty is toast. the only thing that will save Bruce Craig is that he owns bath but even then, I doubt he'll be deputy head of PRL once the dust settles. They've blown it big time.

Its over all bar the whining folks. PRL's product is not attractive enough to float as far as the players will be concerned. ERC and the IRB hold all the shiny lures, World cup, six nations and a true european competition. The sooner LNR and PRL just take the blow on the chin and get on with things the sooner we can start enjoying euro rugby again. Roll on rounds 1 and 2 because the English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, French and Italian players don't care about any of this bull they are just thinking about proving themselves on the pitch and that's good news for us fans.

 

[smartcooky]

Rubbish, you really think the Union will not select its best players because the clubs have left the HEC? What are they going to do only pick players from the 2nd tier to spite the clubs yeah thats going happen.....

The FFR can back the HEC all they want the Top 14 served notice last year thats it they are out.

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 13
13.2 No Rugby Body, Club or Person or any combination thereof may negotiate or enter into or benefit from any contract for the grant of any Broadcasting Rights in respect of any Match or Matches except with the express written consent of the Union within whose territorial jurisdiction such Match is or Matches are to be played, such consent to be in the
absolute discretion of the Union.

13.3 No Rugby Body, Club (or Person with knowledge of such breach) may take part in any Match to which Broadcasting Rights have been granted in
breach of the provisions of Regulation 13.2.
[/TEXTAREA]

If the Broadcasting rights have been illegally negotiated (and they have been) then any players who take part in a competition stemming from the illegal granting of those broadcasting rights, will themselves be in breach of iRB regulations.

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 2. COMPLIANCE WITH REGULATIONS
2.1.1 A Union or Association is deemed to have full knowledge of the content of these Regulations.
A Union or Association must ensure that it complies with these Regulations and must further ensure that it takes appropriate action to inform each and every one of its members of the terms of the Regulations and the obligation to comply with the same. The Board may from time to time issue guidelines in relation to the implementation of these Regulations. Any breach(es) of such guidelines may render a Union, Rugby Body, Club or Person responsible for such breach(es) liable to sanctions.[/TEXTAREA]

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 18. DISCIPLINARY AND JUDICIAL MATTERS
18.1 Breach of the Bye-Laws or Regulations
18.1.1 A Union or Association shall be subject to sanction by a Judicial Officer or Judicial Committee if it is found to have breached the Bye-Laws or Regulations or to have:
(a) brought the Board or the Game or any Person into disrepute;
(b) engaged in conduct, behaviour or practice(s) which may be
prejudicial to the interests of the Board or of the Game;
(c) disclosed any confidential information obtained through connection
with the Game;
(d) breached the Code of Conduct; or
(e) breached the Wagering Regulations (Regulation 6).

18.1.2 A Rugby Body, Club or Person that contravenes these Regulations, brings the Board or the Game into disrepute, engages in conduct, behaviour or practices which may be prejudicial to the interests of the Board or the Game, discloses any confidential information obtained through connection with the Game, or which breaches the Code of Conduct shall be subject to sanction by the Union or Association having jurisdiction in respect thereof in accordance with the bye-laws regulations, code of conduct or other undertakings or agreements of that Union or Association.[/TEXTAREA]

Which all adds up to, if you take part in a rebel competition, you are in breach of iRB regulations, and you can be sanctioned. If you are a player, said sanction is likely to be a ban from playing in any non-rebel tournament or match. This could either be a time ban, or a ban until you cease and desist playing in the rebel tournament. This has happened before, for example, after the Cavaliers tour in 1986

 

[smartcooky]

tallshort,

you (and the lnr, or anyone come to that) are not taking the players into account. They will want to play in the world cup. If the lnr are dumb enough to get backed into a corner that doesn't include international rugby then watch the player exodus begin. Lnr will be left with 14 toulons packed with over 30's.

Its all bluff, look at this desperate sound bite from prl

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8941026,00.html

pro 12 have been happily ticking over on tv rights since their inception. Even if the worst comes to the absolute worst (and it won't, prl are going to cave in any day now, bruce craig sounds like he's walking about with smelly brown pants on right now.) and we end up with the pro 12 sides playing bristol, plymouth and co, sky will still pay for it because it'll be a slap in the face to bt and bristol and co will be boosted by as many england stars who can get out of their contract because they want to play for england in england's rugby world cup. And the england players stuck in their contracts will be striking and sueing and ripping prl to shreds. How pleased are bt going to be if their prem and anglo french games don't go ahead due to ****** off test match stars who've seen their international careers go up in smoke just because prl sold bt tv rights they didn't own??? Prl screwed up. You can't sell tv rights that are not yours to sell. They are incompetant. Mark mccatherty is toast. The only thing that will save bruce craig is that he owns bath but even then, i doubt he'll be deputy head of prl once the dust settles. They've blown it big time.

Its over all bar the whining folks. Prl's product is not attractive enough to float as far as the players will be concerned. Erc and the irb hold all the shiny lures, world cup, six nations and a true european competition. The sooner lnr and prl just take the blow on the chin and get on with things the sooner we can start enjoying euro rugby again. Roll on rounds 1 and 2 because the english, irish, welsh, scottish, french and italian players don't care about any of this bull they are just thinking about proving themselves on the pitch and that's good news for us fans.

^^^this, in spades!!

Craig really does sound like he is crapping himself.

 

[McTallshort]

Tune in to sanity FM

Do you honestly believe the French and English unions are going to force the players to switch clubs just to save the ERC?

What you are saying is such complete rubbish I can scarecly believe someone wrote it. So when the HEC starts up next year that all the England internationals at Tigers are just going to up sticks and move to where? Nottingham? On about 10% wages they currently on.