Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Packman]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8938201,00.html

This is my favourite paragraph from this story:

ERC president Jean-Pierre Lux says, "While this process began in 2012, ERC met with the parties during the summer with the exception of Premiership Rugby who refused to engage. They have never entered into negotiations. This impasse is essentially because Premiership Rugby want to renege on a binding commercial deal in favour of their questionable (£152m broadcast rights )TV contract with BT."

I'm kinda glad this is out in the open, because we've been saying as much on the messageboards for a while now. PRL want to sabotage ERC because they are in the **** with BT unless they can deliver a tournament that wasn't their to sell. So come on Mark McCatherty answer the question. What exactly happens if the eurocup stays with SKY sports???? ANSWER THAT QUESTION YOU CONNIVING WEASEL. Looks like I might be getting £15/month back into my pocket next season

 

[smartcooky]

The same difference as between a centralized soviet type economy where all competitors on a given market belonged to the same entity, ie the state and a capitalist economy where competitors are independent.
In the capitalist system , economic actors will come and go, some will go bankrupt and die and will be replaced by new ones more often than not, they have to adjust constantly to the market environment or face oblivion (kodak, Blackberry)
In the communist system, there is no real competition, as markets participants have no real incentive to develop their market share and their product relatively to the others because they ultimately belong to the same owner. And when the owner fails, it takes down the whole system with him (USSR).

Your analogy doesn't hold. You simply cannot compare political systems with sporting bodies, but just to humour you, the Soviet Union had a monopoly, no competition and very unhappy people, who revolted for change.

The IRFU doesn't have a monopoly in the Pro12, it only owns four of the 12 teams. It has competition from the SRU, WRU and the Italian owners, and they all have competition from other sporting codes, especially the Irish who have the immensely popular GAA to contend with. The players are, AFAIK, happy and are not about to march in the streets in protest against a Marxist/Leninist Rugby Union.

National Union controlled central contracting is the best way to run rugby from an international standpoint. It is no accident that the three teams at the top of the ratings pile, who have also won six of the seven Rugby World Cups to have been held so far, all use the model that you think is unsustainable. That they have been able to achieve this, despite having the most severe financial disadvantages, speaks volumes for the systems they have in place. It is why we will never select players for the All Blacks who are not playing rugby domestically in New Zealand. We will NOT placing our All Black selections at the mercy of the greedy European clubs for access to our players.

I believe both England and France must eventually move to central contracting, though I hope they never do because they will become nearly unstoppable at international level. As long as the RFU and the FFR continue to be beholden to privately owned Rugby Clubs for access to their players, they will always be the bridesmaids and never the brides.

 

[coolbawn]

The same difference as between a centralized soviet type economy where all competitors on a given market belonged to the same entity, ie the state and a capitalist economy where competitors are independent.
</SPAN>

I have the same instinctive preference for entrepreneurial approaches in life, erwanseb, but can you please say specifically what you don't like about the IRFU model compared with the English model ?

BTW the Irish model is actually a mixed model, not Stalinist. The IRFU earns revenue, distributes some of it to the provinces and some to the national team, community rugby eg amateur clubs, age grades, sevens. The 4 provinces have to earn a lot of their revenue direct and they keep it; they have to be just as entrepreneurial as English clubs to earn it. The revenue mix is obviously different for Connacht where they are building rugby up but if you compare all European pro club/provincial/regional websites, you will see that they are all trying to earn every bean possible in a very commercial manner.

The IRFU has some central contracts for Ireland players and - crucially - now arranges that there are only 15 NIQ non-Irish qualified players IN TOTAL on the books of the 3 larger provinces: one for each position in a team ie one THP, one hooker, one LHP etc. So that's max 5 NIQ players in each of the 3 main provinces (there are others who are in the process of qualifying on residency grounds). That is an attempt to ensure that there's an improved supply of tight head props etc for Ireland.

I understand 100% that this couldn't happen in England now even if some of these English clubs drive themselves into oblivion (or even in 1993) but specifically what's wrong with that IRFU approach for a small country where rugby does have to compete very entrepreneurially with soccer, gaelic and other sports ? Should Ireland have adopted the English model ? If so, why ? Should Ireland have adopted the Welsh model, or maybe that's the same as the English model of the Union passing some revenue to clubs/regions owned commercially ?

 

[Amiga500]

In the communist system, there is no real competition, as markets participants have no real incentive to develop their market share and their product relatively to the others because they ultimately belong to the same owner. And when the owner fails, it takes down the whole system with him (USSR).

Tell that to the NFL.

 

[profitius]

The same difference as between a centralized soviet type economy where all competitors on a given market belonged to the same entity, ie the state and a capitalist economy where competitors are independent.
In the capitalist system , economic actors will come and go, some will go bankrupt and die and will be replaced by new ones more often than not, they have to adjust constantly to the market environment or face oblivion (kodak, Blackberry)
In the communist system, there is no real competition, as markets participants have no real incentive to develop their market share and their product relatively to the others because they ultimately belong to the same owner. And when the owner fails, it takes down the whole system with him (USSR).
</SPAN>

The communist system was very corrupt and it was basically a bunch of fantastically wealthy people making slaves of a population. That was replaced in Russia by the current capitalists system where you have extremely wealthy individuals in control of the natural resources and a poor population. Its all corrupt. Chelsea fans love their sugar daddy but you can be sure hes a very shady character. Look at China these days, they're supposed to be communists but essentially they're making slaves of the majority while a minority gains vast wealth.


The NZRU/IRFU/ARU model is more of a socialist model (ie "Sharing the same collective view of mankind as communism socialism is a political system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are mostly owned by the state, and used, at least in theory, on behalf of the people. The idea behind socialism is that the capitalist system is intrinsically unfair, because it concentrates wealth in a few hands and does nothing to safeguard the overall welfare of the majority")


The word 'meritocracy' has been used a lot over the past few months. Is it very meritocratic to weaken the likes of (for example) Ospreys, Ulster, Munster and Leinster and strengthen the likes of Worcester and Sale? We could end up in a similar situation where English soccer clubs like Norwich, Hull City etc can outbid Europan teams like Ajax, Porto, Celtic, Rangers etc for players. Thats why to save European and possibly world rugby its important that the clubs are not allowed to take control.

 

[coolbawn]

I suppose the English clubs and Union have to decide now between:
- running a world theatre in England into which they try to invite the world's best players to perform and then earn revenues from exporting the TV coverage worldwide
- running a national theatre in which many more English players perform domestically and in Europe.

That's fine, but if they choose the former, they need to budget for asking a Greg Dyke character in 2023 to report on what needs to change to prompt more people to play rugby in England and what needs to change to get England to win the Rugby World Cup they last won in 2014 or 2003.

 

[lucky number 7]

We're all ****ed now anyways.

 

[profitius]

We're all ****ed now anyways.

Yup its looking like there'll be no European tournament next season.

 

[lucky number 7]

That said , It's nice having Leinster as the most successful side in European rugby over it's last 5 years.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

This media battle is getting crazy.. It is turning into a Judge Judy Show (Horrible American Reality Judge Show). All the Parties need to check there egos and we need to have at least one party to come out with a desire to comprimise even a bit. Just to get this ball rolling.

 

[Packman]

:lol: So after 15 days and 250 odd posts we are back to where we started with the LNR refusing to negociate. Been here done that. It's just another smoke screen. More hot air from egomaniacs who aren't looking particularly clever right now. I loved Paul Goze's chicken and egg response to who has caused the impasse. Yeah I sure everyone will buy that one.

Give it time folks, this will rumble on until the unions grow the balls to make an ultimatum with a deadline attached. *YAWN*

 

[white bear]

Compromisse progressive project of new eurocups for several few seasons:

1 Tier (Champions Cup) - new organization - 20 best clubs from Aviva\Top-14\Celtic

2 Tier (ERC organization) - 20 clubs (18 rest clubs from top-3 champs + 2 best Exelenza clubs on first season)

3 Tier (ERC organization) - 20 clubs:

Russia (4 clubs)
Romania (4 clubs)
Spain (2 clubs)
Georgia (2 clubs)
Portugal (2 clubs)
+
Exelenza (2 clubs)
PRO D2 (2 clubs)
Championship (2 clubs)

Best 2 clubs from Tier 3 get 2 seats for own league in Tier 2 on next season and etc.

 

[smartcooky]

:lol: So after 15 days and 250 odd posts we are back to where we started with the LNR refusing to negociate. Been here done that. It's just another smoke screen. More hot air from egomaniacs who aren't looking particularly clever right now. I loved Paul Goze's chicken and egg response to who has caused the impasse. Yeah I sure everyone will buy that one.

Give it time folks, this will rumble on until the unions grow the balls to make an ultimatum with a deadline attached. *YAWN*

 

[LittleGuy]

I did say potentially for a reason. But yeah, Italy's in there, and not counting them would be weird. You only have to engage a bit over half of Italy to the same extent that England is engaged to get a viewing block the same size as England.

Well you better be super nice to North America and maybe throw in a team or two from here in than by those standards ...

United States....317 Million
Canada....35 Million

Total....352 Million....which is more than....

Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Georgia, Romania, New Zealand, Namibia, Uruguay, Portugal, Belgium, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Australia, Argentina, Spain, England, and South Korea combined(around 323 million with about 18 of the other 23, Top 25 ranked IRB countries)...with room to spare that South Africa would push over ahead of us...at around 376 Million...

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

 

[Peat]

Well you better be super nice to North America and maybe throw in a team or two from here in than by those standards ...

United States....317 Million
Canada....35 Million

Total....352 Million....which is more than....

Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Georgia, Romania, New Zealand, Namibia, Uruguay, Portugal, Belgium, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Australia, Argentina, Spain, England, and South Korea combined(around 323 million with about 18 of the other 23, Top 25 ranked IRB countries)...with room to spare that South Africa would push over ahead of us...at around 376 Million...

If it was as straightforwards as including Italy, we would, a million times over.

In fact, to me, this is kinda one of the most irritating things. Rugby is growing and there is an appetite for it all over the world. The first rugby competition to establish itself a PRL/NFL style 'Everyone wants to watch it' can make oodles of money. I wouldn't be surprised to find there's more people watching the English Premiership in the US than there is in England and, really, it wouldn't be difficult to do the same with the HEC. But instead of forging ahead with that, we're buggering around with who sees the moolah from it. I suppose that might be quite important to me if I were Bruce Craig, but it would also occur to me that I was risking walking out of the shop with a pack of Cadburys chocolate rolls rather than than a massive cake.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

"He has warned the national unions from interfering, and also indicated that they and the International Rugby Board (IRB) could face court action if they attempt to stop the Rugby Champions Cup."

Laughable sabre-rattling

The only group that will face legal action will be the PRL and the LNR for a breach of contract with SKY TV as well as a direct breach of iRB regulation which they are subject to.

 

[gaston le gaff]

"He has warned the national unions from interfering, and also indicated that they and the International Rugby Board (IRB) could face court action if they attempt to stop the Rugby Champions Cup."

Laughable sabre-rattling


The only group that will face legal action will be the PRL and the LNR for a breach of contract with SKY TV as well as a direct breach of iRB regulation which they are subject to.

The LNR has absolutely no contract with Sky sports so there will be no short comings for the FRENCH in that departement.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The PRL gave the necessary notice that they were to leave the contract, the TV contract is between BSKYB and ERC afaik.

 

[Amiga500]

The only group that will face legal action will be the PRL for a breach of contract with BT

There won't be the European competition McCafferty promised BT.