Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Peat]

Do the RFU actually have the resources to take over the clubs?

I highly doubt it. If the club financiers pull out then the game in England collapses as far as I can tell.

Our best players will **** off to France or League.

I think yes, but not with the ill feeling it would cause.

If gates stayed the same, fans kept spending the same, then ok the RFU would have to go into a lot of debt to sort things, but between getting all the profits back - there are some around - and their own incomes, it would be manageable. It probably wouldn't be a great move for English rugby, and some clubs in particular would suffer - here's looking at you Saracens - but I think it could be doable except there's no way you'd keep the same gates. That boat has sailed, which is a great shame imo.

The RFU will keep very quiet and hope this can all be resolved without them having to upset anyone.

 

[Amiga500]

Do the RFU actually have the resources to take over the clubs?

I highly doubt it. If the club financiers pull out then the game in England collapses as far as I can tell.

With a world cup coming up, interest rates at an historic low and the goodwill of the IRB and other national unions in their favour for finally sorting themselves out? [ERC giving the RFU a temporary development dividend solely for the purpose of stabilising the club game probably wouldn't be a completely unreasonable request in the eyes of the other unions. Predicated on the RFU owning said clubs and on them sorting their PRL mess out]

I reckon it is doable. The main obstacle would be getting a handle on exactly how much debt each club is actually carrying [creative accounting by dodgy owners anyone?] and ensuring the books aren't cooked.

It might mean the strength of the game on the pitch suffers for a few years as the RFU absorb the clubs and builds solid foundations. But, I'd reckon in 5-10 years time you'd reap the benefits. Every club having (or building) their own ground, no short term ludicrous wages in search of an easy trophy, proper youth development, no in-fighting over internationals and international players... whats not to like?

 

[McTallshort]

Game over for McCafferty.

Hopefully the RFU now grow some balls and realise this is the time to take total control of the game again, rather than bow before a few greedy club chairmen.

[The chairmen don't like it - they can **** off.]

Really really helpful attitude that.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Is there a reason why everyone things French Clubs are super rich, the owners maybe but the clubs are nearly all struggling to break even and many with a little creative accounting just about keep the DNGC (the french accounts police who show little mercy) off their door steps this is France not some country flowing with milk and honey, even most of the Brits deserted back to Blighty not that long ago.

 

[McTallshort]

Is there a reason why everyone things French Clubs are super rich, the owners maybe but the clubs are nearly all struggling to break even and many with a little creative accounting just about keep the DNGC (the french accounts police who show little mercy) off their door steps this is France not some country flowing with milk and honey, even most of the Brits deserted back to Blighty not that long ago.

Its the same in England mate, most AP clubs are struggling to break even but apparently they are all super rich and all the chairmen are greedy power hungry bond villains

 

[St George]

Here is my 2p worth.
It’s often said that the English are talking from a weak position due to their teams not doing too well in recent HC’s, but I think it must be noted that at the time of the English-French "<itanic>period of dominance</itanic>" , the Celtic League hadn't been formed, and the qualifying criteria was from the domestic league performances of the participating nations. Please note that this "<itanic>dominance</itanic>" was also enjoyed by the Irish who contested 3 of 4 finals prior to and at the start of the Celtic League.
IMO if History of the HC is to be quoted, it should be from the same period in time that the currently debated unequal qualifying criteria has arisen.

As for the proposals being unfair on the Italians who would miss out on European Comps, well surely the Pro12 is a mini Euro-comp with 4 nations taking part. And don’t forget that the losing teams in the Pro12 get to play in another Euro-comp in the European Challenge Cup. The difference will be that they will be joined by other Italian clubs who have earned the right to be there via success in the Italian domestic Super10 league. IMO this would be a far better scenario for the fans whose hard earned cash generates part of the revenue. Who the hell wants to see their sides beat up all the time and coming last? The Italians would be able to see their teams playing and developing in two Euro-comps, the Pro12 & ECC, and even the HC in time via improved performance.

No one is being excluded from any competition, only asked to qualify via a successful rugby season instead of a failing one.

As for whining about how the developing nations are being stifled, I believe the proposals actually allow for the next tier nations outside of the 6N to participate in the Amlin CC via success in their own Euro-comp. The whole driving factor here may or may not be money, but it sure as hell rewards success at all levels and not failure.

And the fact that the English & French already have the large% of the places in the HC is because the other nations have failed to produce enough clubs financially stable to hold their own. They have chosen to reduce their numbers, not the English & French. The Welsh chose to use regional teams, and some advocate that the French & English doing the same as Regional Franchises. But i ask, why should they? Why should they choose to destroy the individual fan bases of club teams that form a successful League, to go down the same route that has seen disharmony amongst the fans of Welsh Rugby clubs due to the fiasco of naming rights, team colours & home stadia. Maybe our Welsh BMs can fill us in with how the fans of Pontypridd RFC & Bridgend RFC feel since the formation of the regions. Firstly they were not even allowed to choose their own name of Valley Ravens and had to settle for Celtic Warriors, then after problems with ownership, they alienated half their fanbase by playing all games in the other fans stadia. The region was scrapped and those same fans found themselves under another Region. The whole process was not good for Fanbase PR, and to suggest the passionately tribal English & French do the same is just asking for trouble.

 

[Amiga500]

Really really helpful attitude that.

It is. Sooner you folks realise that running any sports club as a normal commercial entity is a recipe for disaster the better. Even worse, running an entire league structure based on it.

Look at the soccer premiership, or the T14, or the rugby premiership. Clubs labouring under debt and used as the plaything of stupid, stupid owners that dream of gold, build up unsustainable operating losses then pull out or threaten and bluster their way to getting others to bail them out with additional monies.


Contrast that with a well run umbrella model (Irish provinces), or alternatively, the supporter-owner model of the Bundesliga.

In the umbrella model, there are no big debts shouldered by individual clubs. Sustainable development with the umbrella body acting as guarantor and benevolent backer.

Or the small-shareholder (supporter-shareholder) model of the Bundesliga. No unsustainable operating losses are allowed to build up. Decisions are always made with the long-term stability of the club in mind - not throwing it away for short-term profit (that includes either on or off the pitch).

 

[McTallshort]

You are so full of S^%$!

The Soccer premiership? you mean the biggest selling product in world sport yeah real disaster that.

Play things? Stupid owners? What planet are you on if it had not been for these stupid owners dreaming of gold there would be no pro rugby in England and as for this well run model in the Irish provinces, you mean a regional system with a high wage bill subsidized by the IRFU and HC money mainly generated from the English and French clubs. Oh and on Ulster....are you saying that is a sustainable model?

 

[Packman]

Think its fair to say that the IRB have bollocked the Unions and the Unions are kicking the PRL and LNR cats for ******* on the carpet. How's that for an analogy?

On the whole I think this is a good result for the six nations and the rugby world cup. I wouldn't be into rugby if it wasn't for test match rugby, it was England beating SA to stop them winning a world record breaking 18 wins in a row first, THEN, from those heroics I got into leicester because thats where most of the England side came from. I remember watching inside rugby with Theirry Lacroix on Channel 4 and spotting Johnno and Backy playing for Leicester and then deciding that the club for me. But rewind the clock to 1998 and swap england V SA for Leicester vs Northampton and I would've kept on flipping that tv dial. Any englishman can relate to england vs SA. Couple of east midland teams playing each other doesn't register with a kid from Plymouth. It's a serious case of WHATEVER.

Test match rugby is still the best way to attract new blood. PRL and the LNR would seriously hurt rugby in Scotland in an attempt to become bigger than test match rugby. That's not acceptable and its not the way rugby people treat other rugby people. When England go to murrayfield in the spring I want my blood pumping and I want to be yelling for every decision, every tackle, every try. I want there to be a fear that England will lose and we have that right now. I don't want to be denied that fire and passion because scotland are made up of players who are facing Bucharest and can't make the step up to play England. Just look back to the last rwc and tell me you got as excited when England played Geogia as you did when we played Scotland. Especially as we were getting our ass kicked for 79 minutes!!!

Here's another whacky analogy for you. If Mark McCatherty was involved in the construction of the piramids then you'd either end up with a pyramid dwarfed by a big castle jutting out at a crazy angle with Mark's personal coat of arms flying from the highest tower Or with a little luck, one of the pharoah's overseers would have noticed what he was up to and chopped him into little bits for being a selfish ****. There ya go. That's PRL pretty much summed up if you ask me. Yes they do have a decent product in the aviva prem. but stop treating rugby like a game of monopoly. Its not a monopoly, its a bee hive and everyone has to work together to survive. This is probably why NZ are untouchable, just check out their rugby model. We can make that work with 12 premiereship teams but PRL need to co-operate with everyone else. You don't see Waikato Chiefs empire building like some feudal baron do you? We all know their team though and respect them for their prowess on the pitch. PRL need to realise their clubs can be world reknown without scrabbling, biting, gouging their way over the backs of everyone else to reach the top.

I get the distinct impression that these businessmen don't really understand what it is that they've bought. I know they claim to be rugby fans. But as a rugby fan all I see is them wrecking my eurocup. Something I love, be it winning the cup in Paris or Cardiff or the heartbreak of losing to Leinster or the pure drama of that Penalty shoot out with Cardiff. If they truely were fans they wouldn't be looking to scrap this amazing competition and threatening a Anglo-french breakaway. As if that would ever come close to the colour and passion of our Eurocup. Nah, PRL doesn't understand rugby. They are in it for the cash. Thank you IRB, FFR and RFU for putting a stop to this fiasco. As far as negative publicity goes this is a big as bloodgate. I'm not enamoured with PRL in the slightest. They haven't won any new supporters by attempting to force a schism in the eurocup. Stop trying to ruin our favourite competition.

 

[Amiga500]

But i ask, why should they?

England and France have the population and numerous population centres distributed throughout their countries to not require a regional model. Therefore, if things were run right, they wouldn't need to use the regional model.

[Please don't confuse my calling for the RFU to own the clubs as being the same as amalgamating clubs!]

To reverse your question - why should the Pro12 nations be penalised for having lower populace (or in the case of Italy, low public interest) requiring they structure their game differently?

England get ~25% of the revenue to split amongst (nominally) 6 entrants to the competition. That is ~4.2% per entrant.
The Irish get 12.5% to split amongst (nominally) 3 entrants to the competition. That is ~4.2% per entrant.
The Welsh get 12.5% to split amongst (nominally) 3 entrants to the competition. That is also ~4.2% per entrant.

The Scottish and Italians may only have 2 entrants each, giving them the potential to divert ~6.25% to each entrant. But, I don't think you'd dispute the fact that the professional game in these two countries does require additional assistance to help its growth... which the ERC monies aid the two respective unions in doing.


I would be in favour of qualification from the Pro12 - with a ring-fenced space for each nation. But I wouldn't change the money distribution to each union.

Does all that mean my lot (Ulster) could lose out in comparison to say, Treviso, a HEC direct group rival this season? Yes it does.
Does that mean it is the wrong thing to do? Absolutely not.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It is. Sooner you folks realise that running any sports club as a normal commercial entity is a recipe for disaster the better. Even worse, running an entire league structure based on it.

It's not that people love having private owners - it's that they love their clubs.
I would love the RFU to have direct control of their players (central contracts etc.) but I don't believe it's possible.

 

[Amiga500]

You are so full of S^%$!

The Soccer premiership? you mean the biggest selling product in world sport yeah real disaster that.

You bothered to check the accounts of any of the clubs in the "biggest selling product in world sport" lately?

Play things? Stupid owners? What planet are you on if it had not been for these stupid owners dreaming of gold there would be no pro rugby in England

So the rest of the world would have implemented it and the RFU stood still?

Pull the other one man.

and as for this well run model in the Irish provinces, you mean a regional system with a high wage bill subsidized by the IRFU and HC money mainly generated from the English and French clubs. Oh and on Ulster....are you saying that is a sustainable model?

1. The provinces are the IRFU.
2. Yes, monies for provincial central contracts come from the IRFU, as does guarantor of loans etc.
3. Money from clubs/provinces pass to the IRFU in guaranteed ticket sales for international matches.
4. Is the HEC money not used by the AP clubs for their wage bills? If not, why are they looking more?
5. It is sustainable as it has been a long-term structure within the game. If that structure changes, then the model will have to be re-examined for sustainability. The HEC money is mainly generated from TV income, not from any individual club or league. The UK broadcaster, Sky, obviously feels the presence of teams from multiple countries is worth more than the domestic league of the English clubs you mention; otherwise they would not have been outbid by BT for AP coverage but retained HEC coverage. [A further point of note is that the coverage of a European competition are very likely be what the big-headline-grabbing money figures of McCafferty's BT contract is predicated upon - which is why he needs to sink ERC to regain legal authority to negotiate those rights for European games.]

 

[Amiga500]

It's not that people love having private owners - it's that they love their clubs.
I would love the RFU to have direct control of their players (central contracts etc.) but I don't believe it's possible.

Agreed 100% on the first and unfortunately also agreed on the latter despite my posts to the contrary here - I think that ship has sailed.

 

[St George]

I think that the English Premiership League is where it is due to the massive interest it generates amongst fans. It is a very successful league and one that has shown how clubs can call the tune against it's administering Association/Union. Something rugby needs to be careful of. I would hate to see International Rugby held in the same regard as International Football, where the English clubs are regarded higher than England.

I agree 100% about the debt issues though, and as a Leeds fan, i have experienced the dream and nightmare of financial ruin. I do believe though that UEFA are implimenting financial controls so that debt should be managed by the clubs individual revenues.

 

[St George]

Although i agree with the Franglais in principle with regard qualifying etc, I think the whole situation has now moved to who will control any comps. I dont like the idea that Unions are being marginalised, even if some seem to be run by numpties.

 

[Packman]

The Soccer premiership? You mean the biggest selling product in world sport yeah real disaster that.

The disarster is the English National Football Team. In my opinion football got it wrong. The national team should come first. I don't watch football because 0-0 draws would be a waste of my life and the national team is pants. They can't even beat the bleedin' Aussies... They can't beat them at football! ....I mean, really? Our so called national game and we can't find 11 world class players???? Poofball offers no interest whatsoever. I'll be damned if I'll let English rugby go the same way. At least I can say we've won a rugby world cup in my lifetime. 1966 is ancient history. Winning world cups rocks! I want more of 'em. I saw my rugby club go from a 1st and nd XV to a 3rd and on a sunny weekend 4th XV AND a rugby League side! all off the back of 2003. Winning world cups is where it's at. That won't happen if we turning into the poofball premiereship. I like the aviva, I like Leicester but for crying out loud lets work together. We can do it with twelve clubs but enough with the Us and Them bull. Will someone please put the accountants in their place and put the rugby first.

 

[coolbawn]

Some posters have been quite dismissive of the Rabo because clubs rotate their team. Personally I like rotation because it freshens things up for spectators and players, nippers get eased in to see whether they can go up a level and rest protects players. Also it adds an extra skill and fascination: how much does a coach dare rotate and still win 5 points or one LBP ? Even the English Premier football clubs rotate.

So it's interesting to see some / more rotation being performed by some English clubs now, either cos they were confident of winning anyway or resigned to defeat - even by a club which was rotating. I'm sure AP teams have always rotated but it seems to have hit the media much more this weekend. Seems good. I just hope the AP teams will rotate in their young English players - not more foreign squad players who are only deemed to be more suitable on the day because they are 5 years older. If the young English players are cheaper, (which I imagine they are) it's also better to use them so the owners don't have to spend so much and therefore don't have to squeeze the minnows more in these HEC negotiations.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Will someone please put the accountants in their place and put the rugby first.

Someone needs to figure out how... with a little more thought and detail than simply "throw the owners out".

 

[McTallshort]

Someone needs to figure out how... with a little more thought and detail than simply "throw the owners out".

I didnt write that

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/199345.html