England v Scotland, 02/02/13

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Big wow England you barely managed to beat the worst team in the competition. Normal service will be resumed next week when Ireland f you in the b(if Mike Ross is fit).

hell of a guy

 

[eot345]

didn't think youngs played that badly, marler is a bigger weakness than youngs in the scrum.

Marler was clearly not a weakness in the scrum he held his own against euan murry how had big jim Hamilton behind him a feat few props could manage and there was a marked weakening of the scrum when the Vunipola came on

 

[eot345]

Without a massive lump in the Boiler room like he enjoys at Quins, Marler looks loose in the scrum.

This makes no sense, usually for quins marler's second row is Robson who is 6'5 and 112 kg probably one of the smallest second rows in the premiership, Kohn almost always locks on the tighthead side

 

[Zed]

Good game. I thought Scotland could have done much better if they didn't constantly kick the ball away. Jackson and Laidlow were very poor for them. Thought England, despite some poor ball handling throughout the game, looking sharp. They are going to be a hard team to beat. Some thoughts on players:
1)Tuigai in fro Barrit, Barrit is a good solid player, but likes the power and pace at this level. TT looked very good, reminds me of Greenwood.
2)Brown lacks the pace and elusiveness for wing also lacks power which can sometimes make up for lack of pace. Not a bad player, but not a wing. Also didn't think Goode player that well, Foden back in or Goode to play the first half against Ireland and see how he goes
3)Farrell was superb, give me him any day over Quade Cooper. Great kicker, good tackler, good game management and he's only 21.
4)Youngs was OK, some poor/slow passing but he adds a lot of pace. Start with Youngs & bring on Care with 30 to go if Youngs isn't going so well.
5)Morgan(?) went well at 8, but he looks like he's carrying a bit too much weight. Could be awesome if he lost a few kgs

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Marler just isn't that great of a scrummager. He does well enough most of the time, some times more than well, but I wouldn't put him up there as one of the best - same with Vunipola.
Both are cracking in open play, though, which makes up for that - mostly.
Shame Corbisiero is out for so long, there is a big gap between his scrummaging ability and the next best option. If Ross is fit/plays next week (he looked to have hurt his hamstring in his last scrum vs Wales...) then I can see him going very well vs our loosehead.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm completely baffled that people are going on about Ben Youngs now... I mean I've been on his case for ages and felt it was a travesty that he'd been picked over Care...but today I though Youngs had a much better game. His passing was better, kicking alright, he generally looked more sure of his gameplan. Sure, he did a couple of those stupid reverse passes to people who werent expecting it but I can forgive that.

I'm going to make a gif summing up what Care did wrong so I don't look like a ********.

Olyy, hav you watched the game yet? Give us wisdom..

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I watched 60mins or so - handling was gash but apart from that thought we did OK! Certainly didn't revert to playing like we did in the AI's pre-All Blacks game.
Robshaw carried better than I've seen him in a while - was great under the high ball (Lions 15?!), Parling was quality (ignoring handling), it was good to see him getting involved more.
Thought Youngs Sr played well, again (as much as it pains me to say it ) - and Farrell is maintaining his non-Saracens form (the form that has him actually playing rugby :lol
Big fan of Twelvetrees, as well. Have been for ages, and really happy to see him in an England shirt at last - didn't look out of depth for a first cap, would definitely start him next week.

I thought Brown played pretty well, better than he's being given credit for - but, as above, he's not a winger and doesn't have the size or the pace to cover this up. Thought Goode played better than he's being given credit for, as well.

Hard to say who to have playing next week for the back three - with Gilroy and Zebo they need to good defenders (so Ashton can eff off, har har).
It'll probably stay the same, but maybe with Foden on the bench over Strettle (not sure how he got on this weekend).

 

[Peat]

My thoughts by player

Marler - The scrummaging problems have been overtalked a little imo, both in this match and in this general. Think we only lost ball when Vunipola was on and got a few nudges on. Murray and Grant are good props, and they had a power advantage coming through from Hamilton. In general, I think Marler's scrummaging is fine but because he lacks power himself (imo), he is somewhat reliant on the scrum moving forwards in general to get much from this. But very rarely is he put in significant problems himself these days. The big issue about Marler for me is people talk about his loose game, that has not been seen for England. He's not carrying well or putting in large amounts of tackles. Imo, we miss Corbisiero a lot, and would have been better off bringing in Wood or Mullan.

Youngs - Curate's egg, carrying didn't particularly come off today, lineout wobbled a bit, but worked hard and defender better than usual. I'd keep the faith but he didn't kick on as I'd have liked, I'd be looking for an improvement as Hartley went well when he was one.

Cole - Typical big effort in the loose, with his ruck work once again good.

Launchbury - Slightly disappointed in a couple of rash decisions and that we didn't see more of him carrying, but he supported the ball carrier like a 7 and was a huge part of our rucking momentum. Lovely bit of jackaling too. ESPN said he only made two tackles, that can't be right.

Parling - Can't believe some would drop him. Huge work rate, carried effectively, tackled loads, must take some blame for the lineout wobbles but is still our best forward there.

Wood - Busy but I think that apart from that one big break early on, he was more workmanlike than great, and had hoped for more from him.

Robshaw - Big game in attack, has lovely hands, but I thought he slipped off a couple in defence today which will always irritate me.

Morgan - Rarely as effective receiving the ball from 10 as from their 15, given some space he was colossal, given a limited start he did a fair job but nothing more. Maybe could still be fitter.

Youngs - Passing was very nice, his one break very nicely done and judged, linked up well with people and generally a good game - still wish he wouldn't faff around so much at the base of the ruck, we'd be better off if he concentrated on giving the ball to 10 quick rather than trying to suck in fringe defenders.

Farrell - Considering some of the things I've said about him, I'm really pleased. Backline is going forwards. Huzzah! Still needs to work on it a lot though, some of his decisions were wrong, a lot were hesitant, and there's some big questions to be answered when he doesn't play behind an armchair ride, but that is the sort of performance I expect from the anointed one. Should also work on his running game sometime.

Brown - I thought he did some lovely stuff. He deepened my impression that he will prove Mite wrong. But he really won't do it on the left wing because he's not a left winger. Not big enough, not quick enough. Play him at full-back and let us judge. Foden can do winger impressions, Brown doesn't really. That kick was retarded. Also, in fairness, the centres didn't leave a lot of space for wingers.

Twelvetrees - Would have liked to see him pass it more, he was a little greedy and ignored some better positioned players, but he certainly had a good running game. Great line for the try. First test passed.

Barritt - Not an outside-centre, often gave the ball too early without fixing the defender, and while not exactly given excellent attacking ball he didn't do a huge amount with it. Ok but nothing more.

Ashton - Think his try overshadowed an imperfect performance, too often he came directly into traffic and didn't do a great deal, although a lot of the time he didn't have a lot of options and we didn't really work him any space.

Goode - Pretty poor. Far too indecisive, didn't fix his man when entering the line and got used as a speed bump. Didn't do that second playmaker thing. If you want to be kind, chalk it up to him being short of match practice.

Subs - Hartley was good, Lawes' counter-rucking was savage, Haskell had a storming 30 minutes, Wilson didn't have long enough to say, Vunipola was great in the loose and shaky in the scrum. Care was ok, Strettle was pointless. Flood's the weird one, I don't know what position was playing and I don't think he did either, he did some good individual things but the game really did look messy with him on.

Overall, think the forwards can pat themselves on the back, their breakdown work in particular was excellent, and the subs put real pressure on the starters. Only minus is their set-piece could deliver more.

If I'm honest, I thought the backs looked a mess, a group of individuals frequently giving each other bad ball and failing to work space. The centre partnership was unbalanced, don't think anyone was controlling it, and both wingers might look miffed at their lack of room outside. That game should have been won more comfortably and with a bigger score.

As a collective, the support lines off of line-breaks were missing. We made 11 clean breaks according to ESPN, which sounds about right, and didn't put enough of them away. In particular Ashton should be hitting those like it was a Portman-Johansson sandwich.

Changes I'd make -

Probably leave the pack alone. Harsh on Haskell, Hartley and Lawes, but I want to maintain the momentum. Wouldn't be surprised if Haskell and Hartley do force their way back in though. Was very pleased with the locks though, which makes life difficult for Lawes. I really like Lawes as an impact sub. I'd give Marler and Vunipola another game, but really, I wish we were looking at Wood and Mullan.

Backline... hopefully Tuilagi is fit, straight back in if so. One or Brown or Foden to full-back. Probably Brown with Foden to left-wing. The unit needs to practice hard.

 

[Zed]

Good post Peat.

Has Vunipola got a brother that plays No 8? Any good? What are the options for No 8 other than Morgan?

 

[nickdnz]

Really enjoyed this game, more so than I would have thought. Most of my thoughts have been well summed up. I will say though - anyone else think Stuart Hogg was total class this game? Also good to see Maitland get over the line - could have got a second I thought if Hogg didn't dive over the ball first. Some of Scotland's counter attacking was very good - haven't seen them run onto the ball like that in space in many years.

Ironically, last 6 Nations Scotland's biggest issue was that despite holding onto the ball for a very long time, they couldn't score tries to save themselves. In this game, they're showing that they can actually be dangerous on attack, but can't get a hold of the ball.

England I thought did well. They played with a good attitude I thought - but there were times that it looked like they were just spreading the ball throught the hands and running hard, rather than any kind of organized set moves - which will work against Scotland, but probably not as well against some of the other teams. Agree that Farrell really should work on a running game - or at least utilize the one he has, but I was very impressed with his vision. His pass to put Parling was total class.

 

[Zed]

there were times that it looked like they were just spreading the ball throught the hands and running hard, rather than any kind of organized set moves - which will work against Scotland, but probably not as well against some of the other teams.

I get what you're saying, but this is how you can break down an opposition. Recycling the ball, running at the opposition, nothing fancy, going left twice, right once, then left twice etc eventually defenders will get sucked in and there will be gaps. It might look like the attacking team isn't going anywhere, but if you can recycle quickly and get past 10, 11 12 phases holes will eventually appear. Most teams try this, but don't have the skills to get past 3 or 4 phases. The All Blacks are sublime at this, continually recycling the ball until the defensive line is so depleted, straight hands is enough to score.

 

[nickdnz]

I get what you're saying, but this is how you can break down an opposition. Recycling the ball, running at the opposition, nothing fancy, going left twice, right once, then left twice etc eventually defenders will get sucked in and there will be gaps. It might look like the attacking team isn't going anywhere, but if you can recycle quickly and get past 10, 11 12 phases holes will eventually appear. Most teams try this, but don't have the skills to get past 3 or 4 phases. The All Blacks are sublime at this, continually recycling the ball until the defensive line is so depleted, straight hands is enough to score.

I agree to a point, but I think once the defenders are sucked in - it's worth having some form of set piece. I think New Zealand are good at this - but when teams this year have either realized that you don't need to send players flying into a ruck - or they get the better ethic in a ruck, the All Blacks tend to do poorly. You see it in any of the close results this year (and for the record, despite winning a lot - I don't think 2012 was a vintage year for the All Blacks at all. We were a bit of a one trick pony on attack - and never seemed to learn from any of our mistakes) we just passed the ball wide and hoped eventually gaps would open - and in many cases they didn't until late. That is why we drew with Australia. We lost to England cause they just dominated our forwards.

I think the best tries we've scored are the ones which are worked through organized attack - as it doesn't just rely on being the fittest team.

 

[Mooly]

It didn't seem to me like Scotland turned up for this match. Although think England would have entered this game buoyed by recent successes, one has to remember that this is the team that downed a Wallabies squad mid last year.

Scotland seemed flat footed and on the defensive most of the match. England's performance wasn't perfect but I really did expect more from Scotland.

 

[Peat]

Good post Peat.

Has Vunipola got a brother that plays No 8? Any good? What are the options for No 8 other than Morgan?

Yeah he does and yes he is - young Billy's been consistently good for Wasps all season and will be going to Saracens at the end of this. Problem is, he's still a bit raw, and leaks a fair few penalties. He's training with the England squad at the moment, I think he'll be capped within the year, but ready to displace Morgan? Dunno.

Other options - well there's always Thomas the Tank Engine, once we get over our collective indignation that he's a Kiwi with ten chins who dropped the ball over the line against Oz. Worse players have and will pull on an England shirt, but for me he's firmly in the emergency call-up list. Jordan Crane is a one-dimensional plodder who does the basics but is effectively a slower, weaker version of Nick Easter with none of the hands and vision. That's it for the England squads, unless we start playing one of Wood/Robshaw/Haskell there. Not a fan of that tbh.

Outside the squad there's Easter, but I think Lancaster would rather dine on his own faeces than pick him. Ed Jackson at London Welsh looks a handy player - good carrier, scores tries and is a proper lineout option. Would like to see him involved. I've always thought Tom Guest has something, but suffers through being behind Easter at Quins, and is now rather long in the tooth. We do have a minor problem at 8 in that a lot of promising young 8s come through the ranks and end up playing 6 or 7 - Carl Fearns at Bath is a classic example.

As for the set move thing - I think both you and Nick are right. Quick ball and aiming runners at gaps is the way to make holes, but if you really want to capitalise it having a few moves which the fly-half calls when it's on is something I'd like to see. Maybe it will develop through the tournament, but I'm afraid to say my money is on us using one move which we codename "Give it to Manu", which stands for, uhm...


As for Scotland, that back three is scary stuff, if they could find the rest of the team needed to feed it they'd be in business. Very unlucky that both Rennie and Barclay are injured, would have made a big difference, but what they really need are centres. I think young Bennett at Clermont might be fast-tracked, he looks exactly what they need.

 

[slowprop]

If someone had told me after the World Cup that England would be playing an offloading game, delivering quick ball, playing with a smile on their faces and with so many young players being given a chance I would not have believed them.

What I really like is that when players come in they are doing well and keeping their places and there is genuine competition for most (not all) places.

Sure there were 'what the hell are they doing' moments yesterday and I'm sure that playing a relatively high risk game will sometimes not come off and we will lose games because of this. But these guys are still in their 20's and will I'm sure improve so all in all you have to be pretty pleased if you are an England supporter.

 

[Patchey]

One reflection, did anyone else notice how many times the back line stuttered when the first receiver tried to pop a cheeky inside ball or switch? Happened a few times and while you've got to applaud the vision there needed to be better execution.

On Billy Vunnipola, I honest struggle to see him winning the shirt off Morgan. In fact, considering how many back row options we've got (I think Haskel, who had a stormer, filled in at 8 when Morgan went off?) he might even have a hard time getting into the squad. Not that I don't rate him but back row forwards aren't exactly a rare breed in English rugby today.

 

[kesh]

Great posts Peat an agree with most of your thoughts there.

Youngs - Curate's egg, carrying didn't particularly come off today, lineout wobbled a bit, but worked hard and defender better than usual. I'd keep the faith but he didn't kick on as I'd have liked, I'd be looking for an improvement as Hartley went well when he was one.

Hope SL does keep faith as he carries really well, stocky, with real pace an a low centre of gravity that is hard to stop when he keeps his legs pumping. Didn't see alot of that against Scotland, but he was frightening against the Saffers an AB's. Maybe that SL picks the hooker that suits the opposition, Hartley must be ******, Thomson clawed the No.2 off him an now that he finally expected to be one of the first on the team sheet he can only come on as an impact sub. Would definitely pick Hartley against France though.

Youngs - Passing was very nice, his one break very nicely done and judged, linked up well with people and generally a good game - still wish he wouldn't faff around so much at the base of the ruck, we'd be better off if he concentrated on giving the ball to 10 quick rather than trying to suck in fringe defenders.

Think the commentators picked up on how his improved with his quicker ball, an even though i think in future Care could be better option depending on certain players around him (Burns, 12Tree), i'd still stick with Youngs as his one major flaw (his slow ball from the ruck) seems to have improved i.e., he plays quicker ball now when we have go-forward, instead of fannying about looking to go himself, an thus completely destroying any chance of time going through hands. If he reverted back i'd have him shot. Wouldn't even have him on the bench.

Backline... hopefully Tuilagi is fit, straight back in if so. One or Brown or Foden to full-back. Probably Brown with Foden to left-wing. The unit needs to practice hard.

Would do the same, i really don't understand this Anti-Brown bias, much of the time, like Ashton, his getting the ball 5 yards from touch with a sliding defense about to carry him into touch within 2 seconds an still manages to beat his first man. Not only that, when he finds a tiny bit of space he causes havoc in the oppositions backline. Creates his own chances out of nothing. Gets the opposition running backwards an draws numbers on him almost everytime. An even though he isn't an out an out winger he does more then Ashton atm, looks more dangerous running with ball in hand then anyone aside from Manu.

I can't really even begin to start with Goode, from the amount of times he gets turned as a full back, to zero one-gear pace, i'd have JJ back in the side for him basically. With Brown given a chance at full back. Whether his utimized as Goode is, who for some strange reason, whether through skill/luck, to perhaps a defender's first basic instinct to back off expecting a turn of pace (or that his not much of a threat to rush up on) finds space i think Brown would exploit that much better.

 

[Atco]

Number 8
If Ben M is out next week, it will be a test of Lancaster's approach. The expedient thing would be to bring in Waldrom. I rather hope he goes with Billy V because that would be the braver thing to do.
It will also be interesting to see who his centres will be. Everybody, I suspect, thinks one of them will be Billy T. I wonder if he will decide that against Darcy and O'Driscoll, Barritt and Manu would be the safer option with Billy T on the bench. If so, whither Flood?
I hope he goes Manu and Billy T to start, with Barritt to come on to shore things up, if necessary, for the last 20 minutes, assuming we've got our noses in front.
However, it's not my job on the line and it's easy to forget that job pressure makes it much tougher for him than us as we pipe dream away on a Sunday morning.

 

[Patchey]

Don't think we'll see a TT/Manu partnership until the Italy game which, no offence Italians, isn't perhaps as much of a test as the Ireland game will be. Also, while Manu's defense isn't exactly shabby having Barritt at 13 to try and put the cosh on BOD might not be a bad shout. After watching the Ireland/Wales game I'm a little worried about how majestic O'Driscoll looks...

 

[Zed]

I don't think 2012 was a vintage year for the All Blacks at all. We were a bit of a one trick pony on attack

Yeah. The 2011and 2012 All Blacks despite winning the World Cup & TN were IMO quite a bit weaker than previous AB sides. I look at the 95 or 99 World Cup AB side and I reckon they would give the current team a good run for their money!