England v Scotland, 02/02/13

[McTallshort]

Great game. England turned the screw at the end but I feel they will need to tighten up against the irish. 36 was impressive think its him and Manu for the centre slots in future. Brown and Ashton are on borrowed time now and I think Foden will be replacing one of them soon. Scotland were ok with Hogg playing some good counter attacking stuff but their pack didnt match up and Gray is completely overrated. Robshaw should have got MOTM and think he has a great future as England Captain. Right off to find some headache pills for this cider induced hangover.

 

[Crapspray]

I think Haskel, who had a stormer, filled in at 8 when Morgan went off?

He played at 6, Wood moved to 8. Same as the All Blacks game; though it does seem the opposite of what one would expect.

Overall, now I've recovered, a promising game. The main thing I was happy to see was the forwards keeping up the aggression at the breakdown. Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Launchbury, and Lawes all got turnovers. Backs still stutter at times, with a few too many knock-ons, but at least them seem confident going through phases- something they certainly weren't this time last year. There was also the odd time a single runner got isolated. Farrell, I think, deserved his man-of-the-match award, continues to improve and confound his vehement critics.

A lot of positives can be taken for Scotland, as well. Most of all Stuart Hogg, who had a fantastic game. If we are only judging Lions teams on yesterdays performances he'd be my fullback.

On a final note, Alain Rolland was actually seen but not heard. Didn't dominate proceedings like he has done in the past.

 

[Teh Mite]

Final note, Alain Rolland was actually seen but not heard. Didn't dominate proceedings like he has done in the past.

Was he Irish or French yesterday?

Yeah. The 2011and 2012 All Blacks despite winning the World Cup & TN were IMO quite a bit weaker than previous AB sides. I look at the 95 or 99 World Cup AB side and I reckon they would give the current team a good run for their money!

The 95 ABs would have given the 2005 ABs a run for their money, let alone the current incumbents.

 

[Crapspray]

Was he Irish or French yesterday?

I don't know, he kept his mouth shut and kept the number of lectures down. So I couldn't really tell. No yellow cards for knocking on either. Maybe he'd just watched the Ireland game and was feeling magnanimous?

 

[nickdnz]

Yeah. The 2011and 2012 All Blacks despite winning the World Cup & TN were IMO quite a bit weaker than previous AB sides. I look at the 95 or 99 World Cup AB side and I reckon they would give the current team a good run for their money!

Yeah - certainly the 1999 All Blacks (1998 was the best team I've seen bar 2005). I think the 2011 All Blacks are in a way a different beast to the current one. I probably rate our current backs as better - with Julian Savea really being in my mind the best left winger of 2012 - and Aaron Cruden being the most able replacement for Daniel Carter we've had since 2007. But we just miss Kaino and Thorn so much. We don't have any enforcers or really powerful grunt men who can always go forward when carrying and can consistantly clear bodies from rucks. The current work the All Blacks do in the ruck is comparitively woeful.

Hansen tried to fix this with Luke Romano - but so often he actually goes backwards in the tackle because he gets the ball right on the line while running too high.

The 95 ABs would have given the 2005 ABs a run for their money, let alone the current incumbents.

Don't mean to hijac the thread - but I tend to agree. Although our 95 team I think was a little over rated. Mehrtens wasn't our first choice 10 for much of it and we didn't get players like Christian Cullen, Justin Marshall, Tana Umaga, Carlos Spencer until a few seasons later. Really - we were great because no one knew how to stop Jonah Lomu at that point, but I think we were a better team in 98. 2005 was great because we had world class players in every position - some like Rokocoko not even making the Lions team ahead of Sivivatu, Howlett, Rico Gear, Muliaina etc.

Out of interest - to Mite and other English posters, which is England's best backline with everyone fit? (I mean best as in first choice, not on who could be good but misses out) Is there one? At a guess I'd go with

9. Care/Youngs (no clear favourite yet?)
10. Farrell
11. Mike Brown? (as others have said no one sems to think he's a winger. Reminds me of Ben Smith in this regard. I don't know who else other than Foden would player there though, as Monye isn't likely to set the world on fire).
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Don't know now between the two of them.
13. Manu Tuilagi (don't see anyone else as first choice).
14. Chris Ashton
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden

Is there any idea of a set team yet? No ones position really seems set.

 

[Zed]

Out of interest - to Mite and other English posters, which is England's best backline with everyone fit? (I mean best as in first choice, not on who could be good but misses out) Is there one? At a guess I'd go with

9. Care/Youngs (no clear favourite yet?)
10. Farrell
11. Mike Brown? (as others have said no one sems to think he's a winger. Reminds me of Ben Smith in this regard. I don't know who else other than Foden would player there though, as Monye isn't likely to set the world on fire).
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Don't know now between the two of them.
13. Manu Tuilagi (don't see anyone else as first choice).
14. Chris Ashton
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden

Is there any idea of a set team yet? No ones position really seems set.

Not English, but will post anyway


9. Care/Youngs - much of a muchness, they're both quick with a decent pass, Care a few less errors but Youngs a bit quicker? It's easy to play behind a dominant pack however, I suppose the no 9 jersey should go to the better all round player.
10. Farrell - better than Flood all round. I think Floods days are numbered
11. Mike Brown? You can get away with a winger having a lack of pace if he has power or is very elusive, but he has neither of those. attributes. He did fine against Scotland, but there were numerous half breaks that should have been clean line breaks if he were more of a potent winger.
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Barret is solid, but limited. Like Brown lacks power and pace. He was running for small gaps that had the potential to create an opportunity if he was just a bit quicker. TT although not particularly quick, looked stronger in attack
13. Manu Tuilagi - no arguments there
14. Chris Ashton - good player, just no swan dives. Makes very few mistakes, quick, powerful and goes looking for work
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden - whenever I've seen Foden, he's always been very reliable, he's quicker than Goode and a better tackler. Goode had a poor game on sat. But if Foden is coming back from injury he may be rusty, start with Goode, first major **** up haul him off

 

[Patchey]

Out of interest - to Mite and other English posters, which is England's best backline with everyone fit? (I mean best as in first choice, not on who could be good but misses out) Is there one? At a guess I'd go with

9. Care/Youngs (no clear favourite yet?)
10. Farrell
11. Mike Brown? (as others have said no one sems to think he's a winger. Reminds me of Ben Smith in this regard. I don't know who else other than Foden would player there though, as Monye isn't likely to set the world on fire).
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Don't know now between the two of them.
13. Manu Tuilagi (don't see anyone else as first choice).
14. Chris Ashton
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden

Is there any idea of a set team yet? No ones position really seems set.

Playing Englands current style that is probably about right (with Goode starting). However there is the potential to have 10. Burns, 15. Foden/Brown. It would make the back line much more threatening going forwards. Might happen in the future but to be honest the current more conservative approach is working so I won't complain.

 

[Teh Mite]

Out of interest - to Mite and other English posters, which is England's best backline with everyone fit? (I mean best as in first choice, not on who could be good but misses out) Is there one? At a guess I'd go with

9. Care/Youngs (no clear favourite yet?)
10. Farrell
11. Mike Brown? (as others have said no one sems to think he's a winger. Reminds me of Ben Smith in this regard. I don't know who else other than Foden would player there though, as Monye isn't likely to set the world on fire).
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Don't know now between the two of them.
13. Manu Tuilagi (don't see anyone else as first choice).
14. Chris Ashton
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden

Is there any idea of a set team yet? No ones position really seems set.

If I were PM:

9 - Care with Simpson or Dickson on the bench
10 - Farrell (mostly because he's not done anything to warrant dropping him thus far) with Burns to overtake him in the near future
11. JSD with Wade as backup
12. 36 with Allen as backup
13. Tuilagi with BB or Trinder as backup
14. Sharples with Ashton as backup
15. Foden with Morgan as backup

The Burns-36-Tuilagi/Trinder midfield without the howling mistakes they make at Gloucester would be Mecca so far as enginsh back play is concerned.

Edit: Stone me, that's a lot of Gloucester players...

 

[nickdnz]

If I were PM:

9 - Care with Simpson or Dickson on the bench
10 - Farrell (mostly because he's not done anything to warrant dropping him thus far) with Burns to overtake him in the near future
11. JSD with Wade as backup
12. 36 with Allen as backup
13. Tuilagi with BB or Trinder as backup
14. Sharples with Ashton as backup
15. Foden with Morgan as backup

The Burns-36-Tuilagi/Trinder midfield without the howling mistakes they make at Gloucester would be Mecca so far as enginsh back play is concerned.

Edit: Stone me, that's a lot of Gloucester players...

Yeah - poor JSD never gets a look in - and I think Wade's size makes England's management team a bit nervous.

 

[kesh]

9. Care/Youngs (no clear favourite yet?)
10. Farrell
11. Mike Brown? (as others have said no one sems to think he's a winger. Reminds me of Ben Smith in this regard. I don't know who else other than Foden would player there though, as Monye isn't likely to set the world on fire).
12. Either Barrett or Twelvetrees? Don't know now between the two of them.
13. Manu Tuilagi (don't see anyone else as first choice).
14. Chris Ashton
15. Alex Goode/Ben Foden

Is there any idea of a set team yet? No ones position really seems set.

Don't necessarily believe it will be set until closer to 2015, trail an error as with most things.

IMO (an it's by no means anything the management probably go for):

9. Care for me is better in a more dynamic side so in future i believe he could nail it down, though Youngs is also improving an not letting him have it easy.
10. The big one. Every England fan has pipe dreams of Burns been our No.10. His kicking stats are better then Farrells in the Prem, an he has a running game an is likely to bring our backs into play better. Is injuried atm though so has only started of the bench against the AB's. Some even sse George Ford as the future (though too young tbh). For me, you can't look past Farrell, it's great that his getting genuine pressure now from the Burns bandwagon, but Farrell has proven to be an Ice Man in front of the posts Internationally. Keeps the points ticking over an the pressure in opponents territory. The Wilko comparisons help too. An is only 21! So for me his nailed it down, an only if he began to flounder in front of the posts would Burns ever get a look-in. Floods seems to be yesterdays man court at the wrong age side of Wilko an now Farrell/Burns.
11. No-one. It's just waiting for a winger to come in. JSD? Biggs? Could go to anyone really. Foden was shite in his last game coming back.
12. Still think SL will stick with Barrett an try an experiment with 12T an Manu down the line with eye to 12T/Manu been first choice centre pairing. JJ/Allen tried if things aren't working.
13. Manu.
14. Ashton. Those seriously wanting him out of the side need to look at his stats. Played 116 - scored 96 trys since switching code. Played 30 - scored 17 trys for England. Have a word with yourself. Sharples if Ashton gets run over by a bus.
15. Brown/Goode - Foden if he ever returns to form. Personally Brown easy.

So
Care, Farrell, Foden, 12T, Manu, Ashton, Brown.

 

[McTallshort]

Sorry Brown will be lucky not to be dropped after yesterdays performance he was very indecisive at times and he let Hogg have a free run at the try line.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Watching the match yesterday I was amazed at how average the England back 3 is unbelievably average.

Out of the four Lions nations it is by far the worst, there is no creativity or spark in it. Although like the rest of the England team it is extremely safe.

 

[McTallshort]

and so it begins.....

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

and so it begins.....

Na, honestly not meant as a jab befor next week, which I think is England's to lose with D'Arcy possibly out and Tuilagi back in added to the fact that Ireland will have a lot more fatigued, but Scotland had a better back 3 and both Ireland and Wales' back threes are better than Scotland's.

 

[SelimNiai]

Watching the match yesterday I was amazed at how average the England back 3 is unbelievably average.

Out of the four Lions nations it is by far the worst, there is no creativity or spark in it. Although like the rest of the England team it is extremely safe.

I agree, and its not through bias.

Goode made a pitiful attempt at stopping Hogg early on and didnt offer much else. Ashton scored yes but was fairly innocuous the rest of the time and Brown just isn't a winger and it showed.

Take the 4 teams back 3's

Wales: North-Halfpenny-Cuthbert
Scotland: Visser-Hogg-Maitland
Ireland: Zebo-Kearney:Gilroy
England: Ashton-Goode-Brown

Even on paper it's 4th in terms of quality

 

[McTallshort]

Na, honestly not meant as a jab befor next week, which I think is England's to lose with D'Arcy possibly out and Tuilagi back in added to the fact that Ireland will have a lot more fatigued, but Scotland had a better back 3 and both Ireland and Wales' back threes are better than Scotland's.

On paper perhaps but Scotland kick and chase game against England was much better than Wales against Ireland. The Irish back 3 had loads of time on the ball but Brown and Goode were really under the cosh from Hogg and Visser. Not sure about next week think the Irish pack is a much tougher prospect than the Scottish one who got dominated for most of the game yesterday.

 

[Joseph14]

Yeah it's the worst of the lot in terms of quality, not that the others are spectacularly special overall. Kearney and 1/2penny are quality. I like the Scottish back 3 but I cannot select two of them for the Lions because they aren't British or Irish.

Ayway, I don't think this England back 3 is the long term option. I and when Foden is back to his best he comes straight back in and hopefully a genuine winger can stake a claim, get a chance ( key ) and then take it because Brown is ( should be ) merely a stop gap.

 

[Teh Mite]

You can bet your bottom dollar that Barnes & Morris tell the uneducated how wonderful Brown, Youngs and Goode are.

 

[lucky number 7]

You can bet your bottom dollar that Barnes & Morris tell the uneducated how wonderful Brown, Youngs and Goode are.

I thought Brown played a decent game yesterday.

That said Stuart Hogg was the pick of either sides backs electric pace and lovely feet

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Watching the match yesterday I was amazed at how average the England back 3 is unbelievably average.

Out of the four Lions nations it is by far the worst, there is no creativity or spark in it. Although like the rest of the England team it is extremely safe.

Like the rest of the England team? Extremely safe? I'm sorry I can't agree. England are far from the finished product but are looking to play in an expansive style , constantly looking to shift the ball even when close to contact, offloading often making frequent line breaks. It's similar to the way the All-blacks play and sure we haven't got their skills, but we're having a good go at it. Englands back 3 doesn't appear to have the right balance, definitely agree, and Goode to me had a bit of a shocker, but Brown is a live-wire and can create something from nothing. Ashton is a different sort of player but his try-scoring ability is better than anyone in the championship besides perhaps Fofana. That's not a fact you an really argue with. Now look at England's players, many of whom have only recently been capped. Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Wood, Cole, T. Youngs... those are all modern forwards who don't just fit into the stereotypes of their position...they have skills you don't necessarily expect from the positions they play. It's a more versatile pack than Irelands. I can possibly see more your point in the backs, with the likes of Brad Barritt. But whats safe about Ben Youngs? Tuilagi, Twelvetrees? Those two are not just big players but also extremely skilful ones. And whats safe about the way England are trying to play, the 1-15 game?

I know you weren't intending a comparison but I can't not: Ireland scored some nice tries but are nonetheless one of the more conservative teams in the championship, thankfully they are an extremely well drilled team with brilliant basics and very skillful. Kidneys approach to rugby is quite prosaic really, it's a style that few teams still try and play, but there's something hopeless predictable about the choke-and-hold, and Reddan/Murray on the loop. Irelands backline is better in that it is more established, far more functional but that's helped by the fact that Ireland can keep entire club partnerships intact. Farrell is no Sexton but he attacked the gainline yesterday in a way few of us have seen before.

Anyway, just a bit confused by your comment...personally I think England should be applauded for playing a brand of rugby which is not about individuals but about what those individuals can do as a team.

Re Billy, he's definitely not ready for a game as big as Ireland away, guys. If Morgan is out which would be a big shame ,I can't look past Haskell to come in and do a job at 8. The challenge will be to insofar as possible, stop O'Brien, Healy, Heaslip et al from getting too far over the gain-line. Haskell, Wood and co can do that if anyone can