England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Can we all stop moaning about Hartly and start predicting a 23 for Scotland please.

This is what I think we will see:

1 mako 2 Hartley 3 Cole
4 lauchberry 5 kruis
6 robshaw 7 Clifford 8 billy
9 youngs 10 ford
12 Farrell 13 JJ
11 Watson 14 nowell
15 brown

16 George
17 Mullan
18 hill
19 lawes
20 Haskell
21 care
22 Daly
23 goode

I know there are some odd calls In there but that's what I think we will see for Scotland. Might be wrong, big call on Clifford in the 7 shirt. I just feel like he will excel in training and offers everything you need from a 7, a bigger and better man in the contact that will sway Eddie Jones.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It Will be IMO.

1) Vunipola
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Kruis/Lawes
5) Launchbury
6) Robshaw
7) Haskell
8) Clifford
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Watson
12) Farrell
13) JJ
14) Nowell
15) Brown

16) George
17) Marler
18) Thomas
19) Lawes/Itojie
20) Vunipola
21) Care
22) Goode
23) Daly

 

[smartcooky]

Right this whole Hartley thing seems to have gotten everyone's pants in a bunch. For one thing he's an aggressive horrible little man, which is exactly what you want a front row forward to be. Johnson was an aggressive horrible big man, and would often throw a sly dig, he was just better at getting away with it, something I hope Hartley can learn. In addition Macaw was a cheating git, but again he just managed to get away with it. Imagine if he had been properly penalised throughout his career, he never would have seen the pitch.

Mate there is a world of difference between pushing the Laws to, and over, the limit, and resorting to thuggery.

Number of times McCaw has been in front of a judiciary...
ZERO in a 15 year career totalling 327 matches (148 test matches - 110 as captain)

Number of times Hartley has been in front of a judiciary...
SIX in a 10 year career totalling 374 matches (66 tests) for a total of 54 weeks suspended - more than 10% of his whole career!!

McCaw was never once yellow carded for violent foul play... both his yellow cards were for repeat offences.

Sure, forwards need to be aggressive, but there isn't any need to resort to punching, eye-gouging, head-butting, elbowing players in the head and calling the referee a fcuking cheat when the calls don't go your way. Jerome Kaino is aggressive; so too is Brodie Retallick and David Pocock and Stephen Moore, but you'll never see the kind of behviour from any of them that Hartley exhibits.

Hartley is a big risk. He's said he'll mend his ways before but it hasn't happened... talk is cheap. The fact is that his ill-discipline has cost him selection in two world cup squads (2007 & 2015) and a Lions Tour (2013), and I'm betting he will cost England dearly somewhere down the line.

 

[TommiG88]

I really hope Ford is not near the England team at the moment. He looks bloody awful for bath at the moment. The kid can't tackle.

Farrell, hill and Joseph please.

 

[j'nuh]

Farrell at 12 would also make me cry.

The expected backline is worse than Lancaster's first choice backline.

 

[Maverick1987]

Mate there is a world of difference between pushing the Laws to, and over, the limit, and resorting to thuggery.

Number of times McCaw has been in front of a judiciary...
ZERO in a 15 year career totalling 327 matches (148 test matches - 110 as captain)

Number of times Hartley has been in front of a judiciary...
SIX in a 10 year career totalling 374 matches (66 tests) for a total of 54 weeks suspended - more than 10% of his whole career!!

McCaw was never once yellow carded for violent foul play... both his yellow cards were for repeat offences.

Sure, forwards need to be aggressive, but there isn't any need to resort to punching, eye-gouging, head-butting, elbowing players in the head and calling the referee a fcuking cheat when the calls don't go your way. Jerome Kaino is aggressive; so too is Brodie Retallick and David Pocock and Stephen Moore, but you'll never see the kind of behviour from any of them that Hartley exhibits.

Hartley is a big risk. He's said he'll mend his ways before but it hasn't happened... talk is cheap. The fact is that his ill-discipline has cost him selection in two world cup squads (2007 & 2015) and a Lions Tour (2013), and I'm betting he will cost England dearly somewhere down the line.

The truth is though that England are currently in a position where we literally don't have anyone to be captain . Like I've said earlier on this thread I'm of the opinion that's it's a short term thing and eventually one of our younger players will put their hand up . I'm fine with him playing and being captain . He's not let England down before he's had 3 yellows in 66 caps which is probably a little above average but nothing to write home about . I'm happy to see what Eddie can do with the team and Dylan before I'll call judgement on it because if we win a grand slam which isn't out the question then everyone will forget about Hartley

 

[Maverick1987]

Farrell at 12 would also make me cry.

The expected backline is worse than Lancaster's first choice backline.

Worse than Farrell, Burgess and Barritt ??

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really hope Ford is not near the England team at the moment. He looks bloody awful for bath at the moment. The kid can't tackle.

Farrell, hill and Joseph please.

Agreed. V tough call on Daly who is the form 13, but he and Hill would be too inexperienced.

With JJ and Manu in the mix for 13 as well, I wonder whether Daly is giving any serious thought to 15. Brown won't last forever, Goode will never be a first choice and Watson seems to be on the wing for the forseeable.

 

[McTallshort]

Mate there is a world of difference between pushing the Laws to, and over, the limit, and resorting to thuggery.

Number of times McCaw has been in front of a judiciary...
ZERO in a 15 year career totalling 327 matches (148 test matches - 110 as captain)

Number of times Hartley has been in front of a judiciary...
SIX in a 10 year career totalling 374 matches (66 tests) for a total of 54 weeks suspended - more than 10% of his whole career!!

McCaw was never once yellow carded for violent foul play... both his yellow cards were for repeat offences.

Sure, forwards need to be aggressive, but there isn't any need to resort to punching, eye-gouging, head-butting, elbowing players in the head and calling the referee a fcuking cheat when the calls don't go your way. Jerome Kaino is aggressive; so too is Brodie Retallick and David Pocock and Stephen Moore, but you'll never see the kind of behviour from any of them that Hartley exhibits.

Hartley is a big risk. He's said he'll mend his ways before but it hasn't happened... talk is cheap. The fact is that his ill-discipline has cost him selection in two world cup squads (2007 & 2015) and a Lions Tour (2013), and I'm betting he will cost England dearly somewhere down the line.

In his defense he wasnt talking to the ref....

 

[spartan32]

What may well be a stupid question but why can't Daly play at 12? If Farrell can do it surely that lad can. He's got great pace, a good kicking game and deft hands. Plus from what I've seen for wasps he can tackle too. I would quite fancy a back line of

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Knowel
12.daly
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

 

[ncurd]

McCaw was never once yellow carded for violent foul play... both his yellow cards were for repeat offences.

Whilst I understand he's not a dirty player his yellow card in world cup was for deliberately tripping a player not repeat offences.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I have to agree with other posters about Ford... It's so weird because whilst he was never strong in defence, he always managed to complete the tackle and quite often made try saving tackles. Now he is being bumped off time and time again and barely slowing down some of the bigger runners. Until Ford gets back to actually completing the tackles, it needs to be Farrell at 10 I feel, or someone will have to babysit Ford permenantly in defence.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

1) M. Vunipola
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Kruis
5) Launchbury
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) B. Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Watson
12) Farrell
13) Daly
14) Nowell
15) Brown

16) George
17) Marler
18) Thomas
19) Itojie
20) Haskell
21) Care
22) JJ
23) Goode

Daly has to play, I will be pretty appalled if he doesn't get the nod from Jones. Toss up between Ford and Farrell for 10, could see JJ 13 with Daly at 12, Farrell 10.

 

[Crapspray]

I have to agree with other posters about Ford... It's so weird because whilst he was never strong in defence, he always managed to complete the tackle and quite often made try saving tackles. Now he is being bumped off time and time again and barely slowing down some of the bigger runners. Until Ford gets back to actually completing the tackles, it needs to be Farrell at 10 I feel, or someone will have to babysit Ford permenantly in defence.

It's probably poor morale and second season syndrome. The mess at Bath will also being putting a lot of weight on his father's shoulders, which won't help things either.

I don't see what's wrong with benching him for the Six Nations; he's already suffered the indignity of being dropped and England are unlikely to be playing an attacking style that would suit him. Then just bring him on to see out 10-point leads or put points on weaker teams.

He'll be around England for another twelve years as well, so it's not like he's running out of time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's probably poor morale and second season syndrome. The mess at Bath will also being putting a lot of weight on his father's shoulders, which won't help things either.

I don't see what's wrong with benching him for the Six Nations; he's already suffered the indignity of being dropped and England are unlikely to be playing an attacking style that would suit him. Then just bring him on to see out 10-point leads or put points on weaker teams.

He'll be around England for another twelve years as well, so it's not like he's running out of time.

Poor morale doesn't fundamentally change your technique. The basic rule is you go for the legs and cling on like your life depends on it if you are small, get the legs tied up and you can bring anyone down. He used to do this. Now he is tackling completely upright in the same way Burgess did a lot. Burgess had the physicality to get away with it but Ford is just being bumped off all the time. Even players much larger than Ford don't attempt to tackle like that and he's not preventing offloads or anything. Someone or something has convinced him to go into tackles like that and it's made him one of the worst defencive players in the England setup.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Ford isn't nursing an injury is he? I don't think so but if he's getting repeat stingers or something similar and avoiding contact with the shoulder that might account for it.

As an aside, why do so many people write Itoje as Itojie? Is there a joke I'm not in on or something?

 

[Peat]

The defences of Hartley are pretty amazing, some of them.

"We have no one else" - Even if this is true, it doesn't mean he's actually an option himself; that's a matter of opinion I guess, but if we have no one bar Hartley, then we have no one.
"His abysmal discipline's never really affected England" - 3 yellows in 66 caps with one ban is a pretty heavy record and one of those cost us the South Africa match in 2014. Plus, ya know, getting a nice long ban before the World Cup.
"Nobody complained about this other player who's aggressive/dirty/cheats" - Well, no, because they didn't commit and get caught for so many stupid dirty acts that they got banned for 54 games. Difference right there. Stop comparing apples with rabid hamsters.

 

[SWAGGER]

The 10 players released back to their clubs:

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).

 

[SWAGGER]

The following 23 players have been retained by England for the rest of the first training week.

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

So that's looks like the 23 for Scotland.
1.)mako
2.)Hartley
3.)cole
4.)berry
5.)Kruis
6.)robshaw
7)Haskell
8)billy
9.)youngs
10)ford
11)Nowell
12)Farrell
13)JJ
14)Watson
15)Brown
The rest of bench. No daly or Itoje !!!

 

[willutalk]

Well that was a very quick step in for Rokoduguni!
Impressed how Ollie Devoto has managed to stick in!!
I'd say the forwards are a bit too similar to the World Cup, where actually we did lack incentive in the breakdown, and ultimately that contributed to the early exit. Thought we needed a shake up in that department.
Surprised Daly and Itoje didn't remain and sad to see Kvesic returned to Gloucester.