England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Maverick1987]

I don't know why people think Itojie will be ready to be England Captain by then?

A year in the side . He seems the natural person who can take it on imo

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Clifford has a bigger future as England Captain than Itojie IMO.

 

[Crapspray]

1) How much rugby has he played in the last year
2) How well has he played in that game time
3) He isn't the best Hooker in England (George)
4) He isn't Captain material IMO.
5) Is he even the form 2 @ Saints (Really like Heywood TBF)

*As a disclaimer, this is only as Devil's advocate.*

1) This season? About four or five games' worth in total.

2) Average to good. Had an alright good game against Scarlets by many accounts.

3) Depends if you are picking a squad position-by-position or picking it as a whole. George is clearly better, but without outstanding candidates for captaincy you may need to sacrifice the form player.

4) He's lead his club for five years and has taken them to the premiership ***le. He's got 66 caps for England. Eddie clearly wants England to have an edge, and thinks Hartley can bring it. I'm reading Brown is Vice Captain, which confirms that line of thought.

5) True, but again Jones is picking a squad for the next nine weeks. Hartley is only officially captain for the Six Nations. If he needs a stand in until a leader emerges, then he's not picking on form. I doubt Lancaster honestly thought Phil Dowson was a long-term solution at Number 8 back in 2012. Lest we mention Botha...

 

[Maverick1987]

I think Clifford has a bigger future as England Captain than Itojie IMO.

Clifford will have bigger problems staying in the team than Itoje though . Especially when Hughes is eligible

 

[TheOvalBall]

I think Eddie Jones has enough experience to see something in his new captain. So, while it may baffle a lot of people, the coach knows best, in the end.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Eddie Jones has enough experience to see something in his new captain. So, while it may baffle a lot of people, the coach knows best, in the end.

Jones has also seen a lot less of Hartley than we have. I think he has been picked solely for his attitude of being an abrasive individual. Jones wants to dump the whole gentleman approach Lancaster built and instead foster a squad spirit of being in the oppositions faces, not giving a flying **** what anyone thinks and just going out to win. Hartley fits that attitude to a tee. The problem is he is a disciplinary mess and much as an aggressive attitude can be helpful, one that concedes penalties and cards isn't.

 

[Maverick1987]

Jones has also seen a lot less of Hartley than we have. I think he has been picked solely for his attitude of being an abrasive individual. Jones wants to dump the whole gentleman approach Lancaster built and instead foster a squad spirit of being in the oppositions faces, not giving a flying **** what anyone thinks and just going out to win. Hartley fits that attitude to a tee. The problem is he is a disciplinary mess and much as an aggressive attitude can be helpful, one that concedes penalties and cards isn't.

I'd be interested to see the stats on it but id say Haskell gives away more stupid penalties than Hartley

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

At least Gatland will be happy.

 

[Peat]

I'd be interested to see the stats on it but id say Haskell gives away more stupid penalties than Hartley

Quite possibly. He's had more sin binnings. But that's not really a point of pride for anyone... "Not as dumb as Haskell".

I think Eddie Jones has enough experience to see something in his new captain. So, while it may baffle a lot of people, the coach knows best, in the end.

We've all just lived four years of "Oh no he doesn't". Skeptical I am and Hartley as captain is a risky call, not least because it starts with Hartley in the team, which is quite absurd to begin with.

 

[Maverick1987]

Quite possibly. He's had more sin binnings. But that's not really a point of pride for anyone... "Not as dumb as Haskell".



We've all just lived four years of "Oh no he doesn't". Skeptical I am and Hartley as captain is a risky call, not least because it starts with Hartley in the team, which is quite absurd to begin with.

Exactly . My gripe with Hartley isn't his discipline . Which has been good for England but the fact he's not the best hooker in England

 

[Peat]

Exactly . My gripe with Hartley isn't his discipline . Which has been good for England but the fact he's not the best hooker in England

3 yellows in 66 matches isn't good. Maybe acceptable. How it's that low is a borderline miracle because there probably should be at least another card for that knee drop on McCaw and quite possibly a red. Everyone should have that, starting with James Haskell.

And let's not forget gametime missed for England due to dumb things done elsewhere is still a problem for England.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Exactly . My gripe with Hartley isn't his discipline . Which has been good for England but the fact he's not the best hooker in England

No, but he's probably the best set piece hooker in England and that's important after the mess of the RWC. And it's also important to have experience around if we're feeding in the likes of George / LCD, Itoje, Clifford, Beaumont, Thomas and Kvesic.

This is an interim measure, George will have the shirt in a year.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Doubt Beaumont, Kvesic and Thomas will get much game time outside Italy.

 

[Peat]

No, but he's probably the best set piece hooker in England and that's important after the mess of the RWC. And it's also important to have experience around if we're feeding in the likes of George / LCD, Itoje, Clifford, Beaumont, Thomas and Kvesic.

This is an interim measure, George will have the shirt in a year.

Probably isn't. Last time they gave Hartley a set-piece with no Saints players in for England, he went a little askew to say the least.

George is imo a better scrummager and will have a better understanding with Kruis/Itoje.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Massive black mark against Jones, for me, this.

Also a slap in the face for George. Comfortably the best hooker in England for quite a while, yet the most he can hope for is 10-20mins off the bench deputising for the arsehole who headbutted him and missed the RWC as a result.

 

[chippieolamus]

According to someone quoted in the BBC's article, Hartley 'deserves a second chance'... Well according to the same article he's been banned on 6 (!) occasions, which would make this his 7th chance... Why are we allowing a player who has been banned for over a year of his career to be captain, and a man who probably shouldn't even be in the squad? George is quite literally better in every aspect of the game except maybe throwing, and I'd say they're pretty equal there too - especially considering there's unlikely to be any Saints jumpers starting, and one of Kruis/Itoje will almost certainly start. Madness.

Also, a quote from Paul Grayson at the bottom of the article:

"I would say the vast majority of his time as a captain, he's been an exemplary role model. But he's had a year off through bans and that muddies the water somewhat. Separating the two is hard."

The irony of this statement boggles my mind - 'he's a great role model, if you ignore all the reasons and bans which show that he isn't a good role model'

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It does annoy me when people say this new responsibility is going to make him see the error of his ways.
If missing a lions tour and a rwc didn't then this won't!

 

[bertiec]

Well...... Shall we have a punt on how many mins of play before a card. Feel sorry for George & Youngs, making way for a thug. Not good.

 

[Maverick1987]

He's the captain because there simply isn't anyone else at short notice . It really is that simple . As soon as one of the youngsters step up Itoje/Clifford or whoever then I fully expect Hartley to be removed

 

[Peat]

It does annoy me when people say this new responsibility is going to make him see the error of his ways.
If missing a lions tour and a rwc didn't then this won't!

Given how these tend to happen in more important games and have become more frequent as his career progresses, one would be tempted to suggest the opposite - responsibility puts more pressure on his demons.