England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[ncurd]

Is there some rule saying he has to release the players?

As noted pretty much locks down the match day squad.

Keeping Devoto probably the biggest shock for me although he did play well at the weekend.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

With the exception of 12 thats a Lancaster 23 (he'd have probably had Thomas over Hill, with Brookes out, as well, thinking about it).
See what Eddie Jones can get out of the same players.

 

[Peat]

I've just realised we're probably set for Mike Brown on the wing again if an injury happens and feel slightly ill.

If Eddie gets anywhere with this team, either he's a genius or Lancaster was a lot worse than most of us thought.

 

[ncurd]

With the exception of 12 thats a Lancaster 23 (he'd have probably had Thomas over Hill, with Brookes out, as well, thinking about it).
See what Eddie Jones can get out of the same players.

The Hask and Robshaw are likely switching numbers on their backs.

Eh well I was happy with same group of players before the World Cup and put that mainly due to a management still I'd have expected a little more change from a new coach.

 

[bertiec]

Mate there is a world of difference between pushing the Laws to, and over, the limit, and resorting to thuggery.

Number of times McCaw has been in front of a judiciary...
ZERO in a 15 year career totalling 327 matches (148 test matches - 110 as captain)

Number of times Hartley has been in front of a judiciary...
SIX in a 10 year career totalling 374 matches (66 tests) for a total of 54 weeks suspended - more than 10% of his whole career!!

McCaw was never once yellow carded for violent foul play... both his yellow cards were for repeat offences.

Sure, forwards need to be aggressive, but there isn't any need to resort to punching, eye-gouging, head-butting, elbowing players in the head and calling the referee a fcuking cheat when the calls don't go your way. Jerome Kaino is aggressive; so too is Brodie Retallick and David Pocock and Stephen Moore, but you'll never see the kind of behviour from any of them that Hartley exhibits.

Hartley is a big risk. He's said he'll mend his ways before but it hasn't happened... talk is cheap. The fact is that his ill-discipline has cost him selection in two world cup squads (2007 & 2015) and a Lions Tour (2013), and I'm betting he will cost England dearly somewhere down the line.

I'm Could not agree more. If this is the best captain we can muster we are sailing down poo creak in a barbed wire canoe. Aggression is needed but not foul mouthed or foul as second nature.

 

[Peat]

Is there some rule saying he has to release the players?

As noted pretty much locks down the match day squad.

Keeping Devoto probably the biggest shock for me although he did play well at the weekend.

EPS agreement. Next negotiation period, I'd put removing it pretty high up the list of demands.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've just realised we're probably set for Mike Brown on the wing again if an injury happens and feel slightly ill.

Aye,
Considering Jones specifically name dropped Watson as his future 15 why didn't he put Roko on the bench?
Brown's usually an 80 min player, but if he gets injured then Watson (or Nowell) can cover fullback. Even Devoto has some experience there.
If we lose a wing we have to shoehorn Brown or JJ in there.
When you factor in Nowells paper mache knees it seems even more crazy.

 

[jordiev]

expected something alot different from jones... with all the talk he gave especially to be likely starting Haskell at 7 when he is even less of a 7 than robshaw was

 

[ncurd]

EPS agreement. Next negotiation period, I'd put removing it pretty high up the list of demands.

Yup can sort of understand Jones' thinking now going for the known quantity mostly at international level when you have a whole 2 days to look at everyone....

 

[Irish boy]

Gutted for Daly I'm mean what does the guy have to do

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Too bloody right

Poor morale doesn't fundamentally change your technique. The basic rule is you go for the legs and cling on like your life depends on it if you are small, get the legs tied up and you can bring anyone down. He used to do this. Now he is tackling completely upright in the same way Burgess did a lot. Burgess had the physicality to get away with it but Ford is just being bumped off all the time. Even players much larger than Ford don't attempt to tackle like that and he's not preventing offloads or anything. Someone or something has convinced him to go into tackles like that and it's made him one of the worst defencive players in the England setup.

I honestly can't understand what's going on there. He's somehow deciding that tackling involves standing straight up and attempting to stop a player twice his weight that way. At best he goes back 5 yards and gets another go at worst he's a very ineffective speed bump. Cipriani used to suffer from this to a lesser degree as he kind of "rode" players until the backrow bailed him out. Those days are long gone now and Danny is a perfectly adequate if not destructive 10. Personally if "he hasn't got enough defence" is reason enough to give Wade a miss, Ford shouldn't be near the squad.

Just for the record Ford / Farrell would make me sad. Ford requires better players to make his style effective and Farrell is a better fit for how we'll play anyway. A horrible compromise which benefits neither.

Whilst I'm at it. Hear hear to the McCaw, Hartley comparison. If you only discover the limits by learning from your mistakes you're probably a bit on the mental side to be leading others.

 

[TommyV]

6 of those 10 players I would have personally retained (agree with Thomas, Yarde and Cowan-Dickie making way, and Beaumont a bit unfortunate but I would have kept Clifford in his place), I'm disappointed to see the others go. Mullan isn't a major one, but particularly was looking forward to seeing what Itoje could offer, whilst Daly has been in great form and probably could/should have started, so he's desperately unlucky to not even get the #23 shirt over I imagine *sigh*... Alex Goode. Big fan of Roko aswell and hoped he would start with Watson or maybe even Nowell at FB (as big a fan as I am of Mike Brown aswell, think we need to start looking beyond him).

I would have gone with Farrell at #10 given form and entrusted him with a bit more pace creativity outside him than the had previously with the likes of Burgess, Barritt and Burrell. Ford's form has been a big question mark since the World Cup and as others have said, it feels like he needs to be babysat in defence in at the moment (hence the Faz inclusion).

The back-row is particularly disappointing but not unexpected. It's been said a lot but why talk so openly about the need for a proper 7 and then send you're only one home in Kvesic and start a 6 there who's arguably even less of a 7 than Robshaw? Our ability at the breakdown has been a major talking point at the World Cup so to now come in to the 6N and all that's happened is we've swapped the numbers on Robshaw and Haskell's backs and put a new 6/8 on the bench is very underwhelming.

Ah well - still looking forward to seeing what Eddie can get out of these players, hopefully once he's free from the constraints of limited changes and seen a bit more we can look forward to a bit more change come the summer.

 

[Peat]

Yup can sort of understand Jones' thinking now going for the known quantity mostly at international level when you have a whole 2 days to look at everyone....

It makes sense and it's not a horrible place to start from. We'll probably win. It grates waiting for the promised revolution but there we go.

The big beef is where he's gone for the known failures. I don't get how on earth he thought Alex Goode is a good idea here, it makes the Hartley decision look sane. The possibility of losing the breakdown to Scotland is also looming pretty large too.

 

[j'nuh]

The following 23 players have been retained by England for the rest of the first training week.

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Yup can sort of understand Jones' thinking now going for the known quantity mostly at international level when you have a whole 2 days to look at everyone....

Eh, he's been looking at players for the last couple of months.

This isn't a makeshift team. This appears to be the basis of what we are gonna have going forwards.

And I want to cry.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Scratching my head at some of that. But of the 23, 3 are uncapped while George has just 3 appearances off the bench in RWC warm ups and a dead rubber against Uruguay. Not exactly revolution, but you don't often see that amount of new blood in one go.

Hope the starting midfield is Farrell, Devoto and JJ.

The question is what can Jones and Hartley get out of players that Lancaster and Robshaw couldn't.

 

[TobesHodges]

I reckon the team could look something like this:-

1. Mako, 2.Hartley(Would prefer George), 3.Hill, 4.Launchbury, 5.Kruis, 6.Robshaw 7.Clifford 8.Billy.V

9.Youngs(Who I thought should have been captain tbh), 10.Farrell, 11.Nowell, 12.Devoto, 13.Joseph, 14.Watson(I think Yarde should be considered), 15.Brown.

When I look at this team i kinda think its far to young.. But am really looking forward to the six nations for England..

 

[Crapspray]

All joy has died.

Even if they do well it will still feel squalid. One of Eddie Jones and Stuart Lancaster will end the Six Nations with a very dented reputation.

 

[Peat]

Apparently he told Tom Wood he wasn't in the squad as he didn't work hard enough.

There are only three possible conclusions here.

1) Jones is a genius who sees things no one else ever saw.
2) Jones is trolling players and doesn't care who knows.
3) Jones is an absolute idiot and we've been had.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The possibility of losing the breakdown to Scotland is also looming pretty large too.

Possibility verging on likelihood.
I rate Haskell a little higher than a lot of others, I think, but his discipline is utter crap.


I'm a bit ignorant of Scottish rugby: How many big guys/powerful runners will they have in their backs, other than Visser?
Ford is going to be a real weakpoint, and there's only so much that Youngs and Farrell can cover for him. I don't think we'll assign someone to babysit him, and even if we did I don't think Robshaw or Haskell are quick enough to effectively do that and cover their own defensive work.

Apparently he told Tom Wood he wasn't in the squad as he didn't work hard enough.

There are only three possible conclusions here.

1) Jones is a genius who sees things no one else ever saw.
2) Jones is trolling players and doesn't care who knows.
3) Jones is an absolute idiot and we've been had.

He told Cipriani to work on his attacking game.
He told T.Youngs to work on his defence and carrying.

I'm starting to think he's been sent here by the ARFU!

 

[big ginger 8]

Can imagine the meetings Jones is having with the players.

George Ford: You need to be smaller.

Goode: You need to be slower.

Croft: You need to stand on the wing more, after the lineout just stay there and don't move off it except for scrums.

Billy Vunipola: Wherever the biggest mass of people of people are, that's where you run.