England 2021/22

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The only thing that might hold him back is that he's not particularly tall (6'4).

Only a slight difference but 1.96m makes him a solid 6'5. Think the Quins website's height converter must be misfiring as it calls all of the players an inch shorter than their metre height claims (ie. calls Dombrandt 6'3 even though 1.93m is 6'4, etc.)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah i agree with most of that. i also agree Sinklers spot should definitely be at risk...but theres not much competition.

Id like to see Stuart move some where and come under a real top scrummaging coach...say Adam Jones stable. i bet he could really push him on. I see a good Tight head in Stuart...it just really needs to be brought out.

Agree. Suspect he's suffering from the Bath malaise and we won't see the best of him until there's regime change there or he moves. IIRC he did put in a very good kick v Glaws though.

Adam Jones has done a good job at Quins. Maybe we can have him from the next RWC and keep him for a decade in retaliation for Shaun Edwards.

EDIT: I've just blithely referred to 'the next RWC' without the penny dropping that is now next year, starting exactly 20 months on Saturday. Yikes!! Jones has a lot of work to do ahead of his swansong.

 

[Geordie]

TBF - Neal Hatley IS a top scrummaging coach - he's just a terrible defence coach, and an out-of-his-depth head coach.

If he stays on as forwards coach, under JvG as head coach, then Bath's pack should improve - though that improvement will still be limited without a powerful lock to provide some shove.

Fair point on Hatley...

Maybe a radical overhaul and allow Hatley to focus on that role will bring a marked improvement in a few of the players.
A powerhouse lock is vital to a pack...a key part of the scrum...especially at Tight head.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Fair point on Hatley...

Maybe a radical overhaul and allow Hatley to focus on that role will bring a marked improvement in a few of the players.
A powerhouse lock is vital to a pack...a key part of the scrum...especially at Tight head.

Isn't Ewels a powerful tight head lock? Because he certainly isn't a great mobile one.

 

[Geordie]

Only a slight difference but 1.96m makes him a solid 6'5. Think the Quins website's height converter must be misfiring as it calls all of the players an inch shorter than their metre height claims (ie. calls Dombrandt 6'3 even though 1.93m is 6'4, etc.)

Even 6'5 is small for a lock...Itoje for all his amazing performances isnt the biggest.

To be fair Kruis isnt the tallest...6'6 but he is around 19st...and he made a real difference to that pack.

The lock situation is going to be interesting over the next few years.

 

[Geordie]

Isn't Ewels a powerful tight head lock? Because he certainly isn't a great mobile one.

top player is Ewells....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Fair point on Hatley...

Maybe a radical overhaul and allow Hatley to focus on that role will bring a marked improvement in a few of the players.

Stuart's 25 and been around a while now. He ought to have the scrummaging pretty much mastered, although some good specific coaching will help him improve further. The bigger issue is probably getting out of a culture of mediocrity and under achievement. I'm sure he'd quickly look a heap better somewhere like the current Tigers team or Sarries.

To be fair Kruis isnt the tallest...6'6 but he is around 19st...and he made a real difference to that pack.

In reality 6'6 is the minimum for an international lock. Kruis balanced hefty with athletic in the line out, but where we've really missed him is his style of play - seldom spectacular, but consistently just throwing his weight around doing the dirty, grunt work that enables the piano players to play. Personally I'd prefer both locks to be from that mould, but other views are available.

I've always been a big Kruis fan and reading these boards he's definitely got better by his absence! But if he returns we shouldn't automatically expect the Kruis of old. He's 32 next month, isn't battle hardened from a top league and I think I read that he'd lost some weight to help with the quicker Japanese game. On the plus side he'll have been playing less rugby so will have been able to rest and look after injuries better. Will be interesting to see how long it takes him to get up to international speed.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IMO the battle hardened point is a bit of myth.
The South Africa forwards proved that to some degree the ones who played in the Top league before hand seemed to be even more fresher Kwagga smith and Mostet in particular.

The top league is a pretty decent standard of rugby, it isn't like the championship or something.

 

[Geordie]

In reality 6'6 is the minimum for an international lock. Kruis balanced hefty with athletic in the line out, but where we've really missed him is his style of play - seldom spectacular, but consistently just throwing his weight around doing the dirty, grunt work that enables the piano players to play. Personally I'd prefer both locks to be from that mould, but other views are available.

Thats generally what i expect from my TH lock...provide huge ballast in the scrums...and then do all the nasty and work stuff in the tight.
Funnily enough i expect my blindside to do similar but maybe im a dinosaur.

The next few years will be interesting for England as a few will be getting on a bit...Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes (all in their 30s), Charlie Ewells is not an international class lock forward, Johnny Hill is still trying to prove he can be...

So there could be some big changes....and theres a few of the young pretenders starting to show up. Isiekwe, Chessum....for example.
And where George Martin decides to settle...6 or lock. And im sure theres a few others beginning to come through at clubs all through the prem....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Height and weight are convenient statistics but really it's about how well they utilise their physical attributes and a less easily defined "physicality". Hamish Watson is the perfect example, he's not large but he uses every bit of his weight and power in contact and consistently has a greater impact than larger players who don't fully utilise all their extra bulk. As mentioned above, Kruis was a player who played like a proper heavyweight lock, even if there were others bigger and heavier. I'm not so concerned if we go for smaller or lighter locks as long as they are physically dominant.

 

[BPM]

As a smaller forward myself, I'd wholeheartedly agree. Size is only useful if you know how to use it. In a similar way to Watson punching above his weight, there are plenty of massive players who are surprisingly low impact.

 

[will311293]

Stuart's 25 and been around a while now. He ought to have the scrummaging pretty much mastered, although some good specific coaching will help him improve further. The bigger issue is probably getting out of a culture of mediocrity and under achievement. I'm sure he'd quickly look a heap better somewhere like the current Tigers team or Sarries.

In reality 6'6 is the minimum for an international lock. Kruis balanced hefty with athletic in the line out, but where we've really missed him is his style of play - seldom spectacular, but consistently just throwing his weight around doing the dirty, grunt work that enables the piano players to play. Personally I'd prefer both locks to be from that mould, but other views are available.

I've always been a big Kruis fan and reading these boards he's definitely got better by his absence! But if he returns we shouldn't automatically expect the Kruis of old. He's 32 next month, isn't battle hardened from a top league and I think I read that he'd lost some weight to help with the quicker Japanese game. On the plus side he'll have been playing less rugby so will have been able to rest and look after injuries better. Will be interesting to see how long it takes him to get up to international speed.

I really think Stuart shouldn't have left Wasps when he did, Brookes and West got so much better under Young when he was coaching.

Also West for that 3rd loosehead spot?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Stuart at Bath has had far far better performances than Brookes has ever had

Never been that big on West, don't know if he's still struggling with whatever injury he recently had but Shonert handled him very comfortably in the scrum last week, and I don't think his play away from the scrum is enough to counter that

 

[will311293]

Stuart at Bath has had far far better performances than Brookes has ever had

Never been that big on West, don't know if he's still struggling with whatever injury he recently had but Shonert handled him very comfortably in the scrum last week, and I don't think his play away from the scrum is enough to counter that

Stuart was better than Brookes tbf but i'm only judging Stuart harshly as i think his ceiling is really high and for what i imagine bath are paying him, there's probably a little more to get out of him.
Ahh i think thats harsh on West... He's just back from injury but I think he's super talented.

In terms of loosehead, do we have any geniune youngsters behind Genge/Marler/Mako? Baxter at Quins? Iyogun at Saints?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In terms of loosehead, do we have any geniune youngsters behind Genge/Marler/Mako?

 

[will311293]

View attachment 12905

Hahah i completely forgot.... After his performance against us, i'd tried to block him out... too focused on Si Mac being back..

 

[BPM]

Stuart was better than Brookes tbf but i'm only judging Stuart harshly as i think his ceiling is really high and for what i imagine bath are paying him, there's probably a little more to get out of him.
Ahh i think thats harsh on West... He's just back from injury but I think he's super talented.

In terms of loosehead, do we have any geniune youngsters behind Genge/Marler/Mako? Baxter at Quins? Iyogun at Saints?

Rodd is the obvious one, but I think loosehead depth is fine. Tighthead is definitely more worrying.

I know Brantingham the young Falcons loosehead is very highly rated. I think Iyogun is a bit over hyped purely because he just about held his own when Saints had no other options.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

James Harper looked class for us but then his leg fell off or something and he's not been seen for a year

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

View attachment 12905

Tom Curry, from 7 to 8 to 9 to 1?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tom Curry, from 7 to 8 to 9 to 1?

Too tall, he'll be in the second row
Raffi at 1, got the speed and the passing ability EJ likes from his tight 5 forwards