All Blacks v Fiji at Carisbrook. 22/07/11, 7.35pm (NZT).

[lance2010]

whenever Nonu received the ball he was running sideways.
Nonu was very quite

Yes i don't know why the AB's didn't just get him to run at the line.Nonu was quite on attack but he was a making up for it on defense he did alot of tackling.Nonu even kicked the ball out from the goal line which i was dreading at first but he did okay,it look like Jimmy Cowan didn't really wanna give it to Nonu lol

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Playing at 10 in those Amateur games really helped his game

I though Nonu had a decent game, to be fair

 

[Shaggy]

I thought it was an okay game by the All Blacks, for the first test of the season ... I didn't expect or want a 10 out of 10 performance at this stage of the season.

A number of areas of concern were answered/addressed IMO ... Colin Slade had a pretty good game considering he hasn't played that much, Wyatt Crockett was good in the scrums and his general play around the park was good also, he will be an okay replacement for Tony Woodcock, should he not recover to the required standard. Both the starting Wingers had pretty good games too - Sivivatu had a number of line breaks, and Guildford did a lot of tidy up work when passes didn't go to hand etc ... Ben Smith was good too, his kicking in general play was pretty good ... I don't really care who is on the wings to be honest, if the team works as a team, the tries will come, no matter who they put there.

Adam Thomson, addressed the back up for Ritchie McCaw issue, he topped the tackle count, did good work at the breakdown, took some good lineout takes, and spent some time on the openside flank when Messam was subbed for Kaino ... the bench playing loose forward needs to be a good "all rounder" and Thomson is the best fit.

The AB selectors will probably be a bit disappointed with how the team played for large parts of the second half, but should be please that the ares that some individuals were asked to work on, were largely, addressed

... having said all of that the AB's certainly have a lot to work on before they play the Springboks ... but hey, a win is a win

 

[Darwin]

Guildford and Ben Smith need to go. Yes Ben Smiths followers would like to see him at Full Back, But Mils, Toeava, and Dagg are ahead of him atleast in Henry's eyes. Guildford works hard, but doesnt possess the X-FACTOR to open things up (Super 15 Final). Bring Joe Rokocoko back, He played exceptionally well for Auckland against Otago scoring 2 tries(both coming off his wing to be 1st receiver on the left), I was also impressed with his kicking.

Joe was timed the fastest All Black last yr so no concerns there. He can match up physically, and you cant help but feel any wing in NZ would look good on the wing for the Crusaders.

Wingers that shouldve been looked at for the World Cup

Hosea Gear
Isaia Toeava
Joe Rokocoko
Sitiveni Sivivatu
Rene Ranger

Ben Smith and Zac Guildford both had very good games. Because of how the AB's played neither Guildford nor Smith got the ball in space much - indeed the only times they did resulted in AB's tries. Guildford and Smith were ideal players for a game like this as they both defended well, had huge work-rates and frequently tidied up loose-ball.... I doubt any wing in the country would have done much better. No matter how much 'x-factor' a wing had they would have struggled to do much with the ball that the AB's wings were delivered.

If you want 'x-factor' (whatever that is?) bringing Rokocoko back is the last thing you should do! These days Rokocoko's game is very similar to that of Guildfords - high work-rate, strong defence (though his cover defence is not as good as Guildfords), reasonably low error-rate. Rokocoko is also very good at taking the ball up in contact and making it past the advantage line. He has been very quiet in the AB's for the last couple of years, and was pretty quiet for the Blues this year too. I'm certainly not suggesting he is a bad wing (as many seem to be suggesting), but he is far from an 'x-factor' player these days....

 

[IKALETAHI]

Just an opinion...I just dont see players like Guildford creating something or matching up in the "BIG" games. Joe Rokocoko showed plenty of "X FACTOR" against Otago earlier this week.

Take the Super 15 Final for example, Guildford struggled and to be fair the players inside him weren't making the meters they usually do, and in games like that I would prefer a player like Rokocoko. Rokocoko as you mentioned has a high work rate, good defence, matches up physically, and He just has more ability to break tackles than Guildford .

Teams like Australia are stacked with game breakers, the sad thing IMO is South Africa has more game breakers (XFACTOR) on the wings than the ALL BLACKS. Wingers who "clean up" and are Safe thats just not the kind of ALL BLACKS rugby ive grown up watching.

 

[Black Heart]

All Blacks 5/10
Fiji 7/10

Other than New Zealand's scrum (which would have proved disaterously ***anic had it included Woodcock, Mealamu, Owen Franks, Thorn and Read) there isn't much else to be pleased about and a 5/10 result is only reflective of the fact that they were playing a much weaker side. But as poor as the All Blacks were in their own right, Grant Fox seemed to be the only one to credit Fiji's game. Their defence was solid and their overall game was relatively well structured. Their attack was strong and they did more with the ball that they had as opposed to the All Blacks who tossed it wide from one touch line to the other and back again before kicking. It's a pity Fiji gave away so many penalties and I thought they were a bit unlucky not to score another 1 or 2 tries. The All Blacks certainly did not deserve the 2 they got in the second half through that foward pass and the penatly try.

Cowan was disappointing. It was immediatly evident when Piri came on that he was in better form, even though he didn't have a great performance by his own standards. He sparked more flair in the backs and one can only help but wonder how the game might have progressed if he had started.

I thought Slade had a good game. There were 1 or 2 ****ly things that he did which weren't top standard but all in all he ran the game well. I think the chip kick and try he scored was evidence of his inexperience. Tactically speaking he should have passed it wide but it played out for him in the end so you can't complain too much I guess.

Nonu was hungry but lacked any real punch in his game. Smith was excellent but didn't see enough ball. Guildford was quiet although that's reflective of the linited ball he got. Ben Smith I thought should have gone into full back. Sivivatu did well and has certainly put himself back into the cookie jar for selection although it was clear that most of the ball was comming his way in the same way that it wasn't comming to Guildford. But I'm always hesitant about Sivivatu. His handling skills are usually appalling and for everything he does exceptionally well he often makes 2 mistakes for it.

Crockett wasn't convincing. His scrummaging is o.k. but he doesn't have any front row mongrel around the park. I thought Thomson did well. On face value he probably made more tackles than anyone. McCaw also stepped up his game since the Super 15 final.

Ali Williams had played no test rugby for 2 years and it showed. He was a disaster. Dropped balls, foward passes, knock ons, not to mention that he spent most of his time relaxing on the wing (where every hard working second rower belongs) and then earlier in the year he even had the cheek to talk about Sam Whitelock's game and say how, "he's really trying to knock me out of my position." Needless to say that Whitelock produced more in 30 minutes than Williams did in 80.

As for Stuart Dickinson.... How is this wombat still employed as a international referee? He would barely have the wit to officiate and under 10s school boy game. He probably wasted about 10 minutes of game time with re-set scrums when most refs would have the problem sorted very early on. Not to mention that much of the wasted time came about from his insistant lectures of "dangerous play" when Andrew Hore would move foward half an inch


On the plus side however there is no lingering scent of Stephen Donald anywhere which is something to celebrate.

 

[nickdnz]

I would have loved to have seen Rokocoko play against Fiji, and in fairness i think he would have created a bit more than Guildford, but it's pretty hard to say Guildford did anything wrong. What ball he got he made the right decisions (Hosea Gear would have bumped off players, but Guildford did well with what he had). The wing is though, I don't believe that he will ever look any more impressive than he was against Fiji. He doesn't break the line by himself like other wings can, he doesn't have the out and out pace to really beat players. All he does is play the centre position from the wing, ie he looks for oppertunties to give the ball to anyone else to try and do something with.

I would love to see Rokocoko back (his game against Otago was very good) but I think Guildford, Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Isaia Toeava, Hosea Gear and Sitivini Sivivatu are all ahead of him in the AB's pecking order. He'd certainly be in my RWC squad, but I'm very bias. In my mind, Rokocoko has just been playing like a physically superior Zac Guildford. He has a massive work rate, is extremely quick, very big and strong when breaking the advantage line (something Guildford isn't). Rokocoko's only problem is he hasn't been finding the try line much lately, and people expect the Rocketman to score always.

 

[Darwin]

Just an opinion...I just dont see players like Guildford creating something or matching up in the "BIG" games. Joe Rokocoko showed plenty of "X FACTOR" against Otago earlier this week.

Take the Super 15 Final for example, Guildford struggled and to be fair the players inside him weren't making the meters they usually do, and in games like that I would prefer a player like Rokocoko. Rokocoko as you mentioned has a high work rate, good defence, matches up physically, and He just has more ability to break tackles than Guildford .

Teams like Australia are stacked with game breakers, the sad thing IMO is South Africa has more game breakers (XFACTOR) on the wings than the ALL BLACKS. Wingers who "clean up" and are Safe thats just not the kind of ALL BLACKS rugby ive grown up watching.

When was the last time Rokocoko created something in the 'big' matches? He was equally as impotent against the Reds in the semi as Guildford was in the final. Indeed Rokocoko hasn't really looked like a dangerous 'x-factor' player for a number of years. Sure he scored a couple of well taken tries at ITM Cup level, but I didn't actually think he was that impressive in that match. I could point to the Crusaders v Hurricanes game a month or so ago where Zac Guildford made the difference when he broke the line, went through the tackle of Jack Lam, drew the last couple of defenders before offloading to Fruean for an easy try.

I can understand why people want 'x-factor' players on the AB's wings, but sadly Rokocoko doesn't fit in that category at all for me. While it has been suggested that he was still the fastest AB last year, we don't (apart from a few glimpses) see this translated onto the field. In contrast Guildford actually looks lightening fast on the field, either when he gets in space, chasing a kick, or covering in defense. Indeed he came from a huge distance away to chase down the Fijian number 8 in Fiji's first try (while Slade didn't seem to be catching him at all). To appreciate how good players like Guildford are you really need to watch them at the ground - the distance he covers at the back is phenomenal - he doesn't get much credit for this but it makes every other player in his teams job easier.

I thought Sivivatu had a very strong game on the other wing too, so the pressure is certainly on the likes of Guildford and (the currently injured) Hosea Gear to perform when (or if) they get a chance.

I would have loved to have seen Rokocoko play against Fiji, and in fairness i think he would have created a bit more than Guildford, but it's pretty hard to say Guildford did anything wrong. What ball he got he made the right decisions (Hosea Gear would have bumped off players, but Guildford did well with what he had). The wing is though, I don't believe that he will ever look any more impressive than he was against Fiji. He doesn't break the line by himself like other wings can, he doesn't have the out and out pace to really beat players. All he does is play the centre position from the wing, ie he looks for oppertunties to give the ball to anyone else to try and do something with.

I would love to see Rokocoko back (his game against Otago was very good) but I think Guildford, Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Isaia Toeava, Hosea Gear and Sitivini Sivivatu are all ahead of him in the AB's pecking order. He'd certainly be in my RWC squad, but I'm very bias. In my mind, Rokocoko has just been playing like a physically superior Zac Guildford. He has a massive work rate, is extremely quick, very big and strong when breaking the advantage line (something Guildford isn't). Rokocoko's only problem is he hasn't been finding the try line much lately, and people expect the Rocketman to score always.

Stats (www.foxsports.com.au) suggest that Guildford made more linebreaks (15) than any other wing in Super Rugby apart from Sivivatu and Ioane (with 16 apiece). Players like Gear (11) and Rokocoko (10) made less breaks, despite having more runs than Guildford. While being on the end of the Crusaders backline will undoubtedly have helped him make linebreaks it is interesting that he made a few more breaks than Maitland (who often get praised for his linebreaking ability) despite having made a similar number of runs. People don't seem to count Guildfords linebreaks though as he runs into gaps rather than running through players - he makes linebreaks by running great lines rather than by using power/stepping (The 1st Crusaders v Sharks game is a great example of this). His linebreaks are clearly not all set up by other people either, with his break leading to Fruean's try v the Hurricanes a good example. I don't understand why you think he lacks 'out and out pace' - he, along with Maitland, are a couple of the only NZ wings that have beaten player consistently this year using pace (again the 1st Sharks game is a great example of this).

It will be really interesting to see how he goes in the Tri-nations (he may even be playing on the right wing, with Gear on the left for the early matches).

 

[Black Heart]

It's an interesting discussion.

Of all the class wingers we have I think the one player who has the full package is actually Rene Ranger. The one thing that lets him down is his dicipline. He is undoubtable the strongest runner along with Hosea Gear and he's the hardest to put to ground. He is an excellent defender (his desire to hospitalise players being the main cause of his ill dicipline) and he can cover the mid-field even more effectively. I agree that his handling skills can prove off at times but they are never as poor as someone like Sivivatu's who has never developed the fine art of holding onto a ball.

 

[Sneaki]

I thought that little push from Smith on Nonu in the ingoal was pretty funny actually. They were pretty much neck and neck and someone had to score, a knock on would have been fairly embarrassing. You could see them having a laugh about it afterwards too, not sure who it was here who said it was pathetic but I can't really see how else they could have handled it.

 

[DJRonStar]

Let's face it Ben smith and Zac Guildford will not be in the final world cup squad. Zac Guildford looked a bit lost on defence a couple of times including once where the Fijians scored. A bit like how lost he looked when Genia scored his try against the Crusaders. Ben Smith is no wing and that showed on attack when there was an overlap and he was standing too wide for Mills to throw a quick pass, even the commentators were talking about where he should of been standing.

Wasn't expecting too much from the ABs as it was there first game. I thought the Fijians did well in retention and repeat phases. Stu Dickenson again had a big influence on the game. Too much time wastage in the scrums and a penalty try?? Ha ha what a joke!

 

[Larksea]

Firstly I thought Fiji were pretty good.

Yes their scrum got hammered but they ran hard. Used the ball and their size. Pressued the AB's on defence which was well organised.

Which was good, the AB's defence got really tested and for the most part passed.

Funny how I've had to defend my opinion this week that Conrad smith has a bit of a weakness on defence against bigger oposition and he made me proud when he dropped straight off that big Fijian lad and let in a try. Apart from that smith had a good game and and with more gametime I think he will improve.

As far as bad points for the AB's

One thing that I dont think people have touched on yet after reading most of this thread is the number of Tackles Richie McCaw dropped off. He also looks short of speed.

I thought Jimmy Cowan was pretty average. wasted some ball and didn't really create anything. At one point Messam started a nice little breakout and linked to cowan who wasted it with a bad kick. His passing also just seemed to lack some snap - his ball was pretty slow which is a pet hate of mine because if the 9 is slow the whole backline/team suffers.

Also to me there were a number of AB's who took the match pretty lightly, only really going 70-80% intensity. Ali Williams, Jimmy Cowan, Ma'a Nonu, Jared Hoeata, Liam messam, Mills, Guildford. None had bad games and they only really looked liike they were giving 70-80% which was more than what was needed to pull out an easy win against Fiji. The up side of that is that we came out of the game mostly injury free. These guys will have to lift in tri-nations but they obviously have more in them.

Liam Messam was a good example, he put some good hits in on defence early in the game and some nice touches with the ball and at times he and tompson worked well together at the breakdown. Was also pretty much mistake free but there wasn't much intensity from him. He didn't really push himself.

The good:

Weepu was good when he came on, which turned things up after a pretty dull effort from Cowan.

Sivivatu looked up for it in the first half. looked pretty quick at times too.

Colin slades goal kicking. Looked pretty safe, he had some nice touches - looked a bit fragile on defence but didn't yeald much.

I also thought Ben smith was very good. I dont understand the -ve stuff he's getting. Mostly from rene Ranger fans I think seriously Ben smith looks dangerous when he gets the ball and made a few minibreaks over the advantage line. Got a great kicking game and he was safe as houses in every other aspect.

I'm in the camp of people who love Rangers xfactor but are worried that at test level he would be just as likely to do something bad in games where his chances to shine are greatly reduced.

That just leaves Zac Guildford as far as the wings go, though he didn't have a bad game he wasn't his usual busy self, he for me is one of those guys that was running 70-80%, one nice little run and pass to setup mills, but you expect more from him and his reputation as the hardest working winger around.

overall I honestly think this was an ok first test effort. AB's do start slow and they were running a new gameplan. They will lift with every game and the challenge of stronger oposition

one thing that is really starting to **** me off is all these players like Thompson & Hoeata that are coming out saying things like "test rugby is just another game and you have to go out and do your job" this mindset worries me, sure you caneat Fiji like that but when you're the #1 team in the world you are playing teams that have nothing to lose and they sure hell aren't going to see the game as "just another day at the office where all they need to do is do their job"

I think these guys need to face up to the fact the time will come playing test rugby when they will need to push themselves harder than they ever have to try and ensure the result they need and "just doing their job" wont be enough.

 

[Wally]

Girl, I think I want to marry you.

 

[Darwin]

Let's face it Ben smith and Zac Guildford will not be in the final world cup squad. Zac Guildford looked a bit lost on defence a couple of times including once where the Fijians scored. A bit like how lost he looked when Genia scored his try against the Crusaders. Ben Smith is no wing and that showed on attack when there was an overlap and he was standing too wide for Mills to throw a quick pass, even the commentators were talking about where he should of been standing.

Wasn't expecting too much from the ABs as it was there first game. I thought the Fijians did well in retention and repeat phases. Stu Dickenson again had a big influence on the game. Too much time wastage in the scrums and a penalty try?? Ha ha what a joke!

At this stage Guildford is still probably in-line to make the RWC squad, while Ben Smith is still on the outside looking in, though much can change during the Tri-nations. Sivivatu had a very good game vs Fiji so he certainly improved his chances of making the final squad too.

I'm not sure what game you were watching, but Zac Guildford looked very good on defense to me. What mistakes did he make in defense? In the first Fijian try he came from a huge distance away to tackle the Fijian number 8 (no-one else was going to get close!), and in the second he (rightly) covered the outside man on the wing and Conrad Smith missed a one-on-one tackle inside him - it certainly wasn't Guildfords fault! With regards to the Genia try, that was not Guildford's fault either - Fotuali'i missed the initial tackle and Sean Maitland was lined up to take Genia (which he failed to do), Guildford's job was to cover the men outside Genia (which he clearly did). Guildford may not be perfect, but he is close to the best defensive wing in the country.

Ben Smith is best at fullback, but he is more than capable on the wing. I was at the ground watching the game and can't recall the incident you mention when Smith was standing too wide - I plan to watch a full replay tonight though, so will comment once I've seen it. Smith looked dangerous whenever he got the ball in my opinion - certainly didn't look out of place on the wing (not surprising as he has plenty of experience on the wing).

It's an interesting discussion.

Of all the class wingers we have I think the one player who has the full package is actually Rene Ranger. The one thing that lets him down is his dicipline. He is undoubtable the strongest runner along with Hosea Gear and he's the hardest to put to ground. He is an excellent defender (his desire to hospitalise players being the main cause of his ill dicipline) and he can cover the mid-field even more effectively. I agree that his handling skills can prove off at times but they are never as poor as someone like Sivivatu's who has never developed the fine art of holding onto a ball.

Yeah I think the 5 outside back spots are the most hotly contested place in the RWC squad - currently there are 8 players competing for these 5 positions, and that doesn't include those like Ranger and Rokocoko, who didn't even make the squad. I honestly don't think there is much between most of NZ's top wings; they all have different strengths and weaknesses, and I think there are valid arguments for the inclusion (or exclusion) of any of these wings in the AB's squad. Who the AB's selectors pick will come very much down to who suits their game plan best.

I'm personally quite a fan of Ranger too - he has all the strengths you mention as well as having a big work-rate, and he is in my mind the best outside back in NZ at the breakdown. As you say his main issue is discipline, as well as his positional play in defence - the Blues conceded a number of tries down his wing when he drifted in-field off his man in defense. I'd actually be happy with any of a number of NZ wings/fullbacks in the RWC squad. Although I seem to spend my whole time on here defending Zac Guildford, I'm not actually his biggest fan - I just think he is very under-rated by many people.

 

[Black Heart]

One thing that I dont think people have touched on yet after reading most of this thread is the number of Tackles Richie McCaw dropped off. He also looks short of speed.

Sooo have you got any replacment ideas?

Richie could go out in a wheel chair and still be the best openside we've got.
I know you're not getting at that but yeah you're right in that he hasn't been 100%. To be fair to him though he had been out injured for much of the Super 15 and he really only had the semi/final to get himself back into form. He did look considerably better last night than he did against the Reds which is promising and I think the number of dropped tackles represented his willingness to be the first to the tackle.

one thing that is really starting to **** me off is all these players like Thompson & Hoeata that are coming out saying things like "test rugby is just another game and you have to go out and do your job" this mindset worries me, sure you caneat Fiji like that but when you're the #1 team in the world you are playing teams that have nothing to lose and they sure hell aren't going to see the game as "just another day at the office where all they need to do is do their job"

I think you're missing the point. It's important for the newer players to go into test rugby with a level head and not let the emotions of playing international rugby get ahead of their ability to just play their own game. Ben Smith was saying the same thing earlier on in the week. I highly doubt that you will get seasoned players like McCaw and Muliaina saying the same thing however. Their game will be well tuned enough to know that it's expected to play out of your skin when you're wearing black.

 

[Darwin]

Sooo have you got any replacment ideas?

Richie could go out in a wheel chair and still be the best openside we've got.
I know you're not getting at that but yeah you're right in that he hasn't been 100%. To be fair to him though he had been out injured for much of the Super 15 and he really only had the semi/final to get himself back into form. He did look considerably better last night than he did against the Reds which is promising and I think the number of dropped tackles represented his willingness to be the first to the tackle.

I agree, I too thought McCaw showed some more improvement again this week. He still has a way to go; if he plays every game in the Tri-nations hopefully he will be back too his best by RWC time.

 

[Larksea]

I never said McCaw should be cut. As I've posted before I think the guy needs to play every week and I do believe he will improve. But Saw him mess at least 3 tackles. Lesser players have been dumped from the all blacks for performances like that. I hope he comes good fast.

And no I dont think I'm misssing the point. The best all blacks know hat test rugby is unique and they lift their game accordingly. Instead of letting their emotions get on top of them they focus their emotions and feed off them and it lifts them. How far will "doing their job" and "just another game" get them in the WC against teams that are so passionate they cry during the anthems and feed off that to produce the games of their lives? Because thats the very real situation that has been part of the downfall of NZ sides at world cups over the last 20-odd years.

 

[Black Heart]

I never said McCaw should be cut. As I've posted before I think the guy needs to play every week and I do believe he will improve. But Saw him mess at least 3 tackles. Lesser players have been dumped from the all blacks for performances like that. I hope he comes good fast.

Yes I know you never meant that. I was having a laugh. Again, if you look at the number of tackle attempts he makes he's likely to miss more as a result.

And no I dont think I'm misssing the point. The best all blacks know hat test rugby is unique and they lift their game accordingly. Instead of letting their emotions get on top of them they focus their emotions and feed off them and it lifts them. How far will "doing their job" and "just another game" get them in the WC against teams that are so passionate they cry during the anthems and feed off that to produce the games of their lives? Because thats the very real situation that has been part of the downfall of NZ sides at world cups over the last 20-odd years.

That's pretty much what I just said.

 

[nickdnz]

One thing that no one has pointed out yet, did anyone else think the All Black tactics for this match, were pretty terrible. There was little to no forwards running from the ruck, instead what happened is that Jimmy Cowan would pass out to Slade, Slade would pass it to the mid field and then Ma'a Nonu or a forward would just constantly crash it in the centre. There were a number of times that the ball was just crashed in mid field and Richie McCaw would just hit it with space and options wide. It honestly was like watching England's play in 2009. So frustrating. It seems pretty obvious that what ever the back three is chosen, they are not going to be seeing much ball. I think if the All Blacks drew the players in by pick and going oof the ruck, or off running pods near the ruck, then they would have made so many yards and freed up so much space for the backs. As it was, they were pretty much just mid field crashing against a 13 man defence.

I agree with peoples criticism that Ben Smith isn't a wing. He did pretty well with what he got, but his creativity is wasted on the wing and he doesn't have the out and out pace to beat the man on the outside. The problem is, Ted has been a Muliaina fan for a long time, and it is pretty clear no one is going to get a run at fullback till Mils reaches 100 test caps and leaves the All Blacks. Which is a shame because Toeava, Smith, Dagg and arguably Jane are all in better form at fullback but have to play on the wing. Not saying Muliaina had a bad game, but I don't feel he is the best fullback any more.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

With regards to the Genia try, that was not Guildford's fault either - Fotuali'i missed the initial tackle and Sean Maitland was lined up to take Genia (which he failed to do), Guildford's job was to cover the men outside Genia (which he clearly did). Guildford may not be perfect, but he is close to the best defensive wing in the country.

Well Carter rushed up out of the line to force Genia to pass the ball or to force him to run inside where Richie was suppose to be but he had already made his decision to run across the field, this created the gap which allowed Genia to run through. Genia was already running where can Kahn had to start from stand still so Genia already had him beat.