Aviva Premiership 15/16 - Round 4

[McTallshort]

I think he was having a go at 36, thinking that 36 was telling the ref to card him, when he was really doing the opposite.

Thought I heard 36 saying it wasn't too bad and not to worry.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thought I heard 36 saying it wasn't too bad and not to worry.

He was, but all Cittadini saw was 36 and the ref chatting, in a foreign language, and then him getting carded - don't think it'd be a massive stretch to presume the other guy is dobbing you in

 

[Patchey]

Best thing 36 has done on a rugby pitch since that England cameo last year...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Good effort from Billy, I wish more players would have that degree of spine... but Cittadini definitely punched him in the throat and face! :lol:

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well 36 came across as a jolly good chap, a fine old bean and a top sport. Pity he can't add great player to that list but one can hope.

 

[j'nuh]

Funny how poor the Gloucs pack often is when it has two thirds of many people's preferred Eng back row playing. Plus Afoa, plus Hibbard. Less than the sum of its parts.

But yes Kvesic did look good again today.

As a massive fan of Hibbard back when he was first announced for Gloucester, he's definitely a shadow of himself now, both for club and country. Rumour is that he's going back to Wales with Stephen Moore coming in, which would be a great trade-off IMO.

Scrummaging-wise, our props are doing a fine job at the minute. It was by far our best area today, and McAllister looks like a very shrewd signing.

The second row distinctly lacks quality (we made a big mistake not keeping Palmer). Thrush can't come in soon enough, or at least we need Galarza back in from his suspension. And Kalamafoni/Morgan are both inconsistent for Gloucester, although Morgan wasn't too bad today.

That being said, the backline is a much more dire state than the pack. Hoping Tom Marshall will provide some attacking impetus through the centres or that Trinder will be back soon. I'm not sure what Nick Walshe is doing with the backs all week tbh. And I don't rate our fly-halves. It's not the right position for Hook and it's too early for Billy Burns. Been very disappointed with Heinz, and I hope Halaifonua never plays for us again. He's reckless in his tackling and is a total liability for whoever he plays for. When the time is right, I'd like to see this given a go:
9. Laidlaw 10. Twelvetrees 11. May 12. Marshall 13. Trinder/Purdy 14. Sharples 15. Hook

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Thrush could be a great signing for you - I can see him really wanting to get stuck in.

 

[Raggs]

Speed and workrate - Dave's workrate is off the charts for a guy his size.

And you don't think that Billy V, being 2nd highest tackler of the tournament in the 6N (just 3 behind Mr. Engine himself, Robshaw), whilst still putting in truly enormous carrying shifts and a few turnovers, doesn't have a decent workrate (all at international level, not just AP).

 

[ratsapprentice]

Dave's is at least as good at the level he's been given to showcase himself.

I'm not the one bringing Billy up though... Ewers is primarily a flanker.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Billy V has always had good workrate for club, but it hasn't really translated much in international rugby.

Might be Lancaster, who knows.

 

[Raggs]

Billy V has always had good workrate for club, but it hasn't really translated much in international rugby.

Might be Lancaster, who knows.

Again, this is the guy who was 2nd highest tackler through the entire 6N tournament (and I believe he was subbed once or twice), just 3 behind Robshaw. Whilst still making a ton of heavy yards, and hitting rucks hard...

Ewers looks good, especially at AP level, but he's an 8 that moved to 6, there's no reason that BV can't do that, and has done that for Sarries. Unless Ewers shows something a long way in advance of what Billy V can do (and he hasn't, neither in workrate nor carrying), they're competing for the same caps, be that at 8 or 6. As such, I'd rather stick with the 20 cap investment in 23 year old Billy V, than start again with 0 international (and very few top tier Euro/playoff) caps, 25 year old, Dave Ewers.

It's not that I don't think Ewers is good enough, it's just I don't see any large disparity between their abilities, and therefore see little point in sacrificing caps from a younger, established player, onto an older, as yet unestablished (internationally) player.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

2nd for England yes.

I just don't see him as a 6, Robshaw is a 6, Ewers IMO is not an 8 who can play 6 he is a 6 that can play 8.

Doesn't matter as Clifford is our superstar 6 and should be made captain of the lions now.

 

[Raggs]

2nd for England yes.

I just don't see him as a 6, Robshaw is a 6, Ewers IMO is not an 8 who can play 6 he is a 6 that can play 8.

Doesn't matter as Clifford is our superstar 6 and should be made captain of the lions now.

2nd in the tournament, not just for England (equal with Jonny Gray).

Clifford and Itoje look most likely for me atm.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

2nd in the tournament, not just for England (equal with Jonny Gray).

Clifford and Itoje look most likely for me atm.

Have you got the source.

 

[Raggs]

Have you got the source.

I counted it up using the espnscrum stats. Six nations site gives the top tackler for each country, Robshaw was the top overall, BV was just 3 behind, with Johnny Gray being top for Scotland, with the same number as BV.

Their new web design makes it a real pain to do it again. But he made 21 against France (quickest to come up).

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

But how do you go about that?

Expand the league and make it no relegation for 4 seasons? many lower the penalties amount?

I hate the idea of ringfencing but it might encourage a more attack minded approach from teams lower and therefore might encourage it from the top half.

Not gonna lie to you, I don't have a clue.

All I know is that the financial preoccupations of the clubs - their fear of relegation - should not be the biggest single influence upon the development of player skills and mentality.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

These are probably the same stats that tell you Geoff Parling is world class. They tell you everything and nothing.

BV is very good, but opponents know exactly what's coming. It'll work at AP level, maybe even 6N, but the big boys won't be frightened of it. You need more from your 8, Morgan has some of that, Beaumont's developing it and Hughes (like it or not) has it. BV feels more suited to 6 in some ways although not sure he's fast enough over the ground. In a year or so I could easily see both him and his brother out of the Eng match day 23.

 

[Raggs]

OH, stats can tell a different story, but to be one of the top tacklers across 6 teams in 15 games, along with being an active heavy carrier, does not point to a questionable work rate.

You say they know what's coming, and they do, but that still doesn't stop at least 3 ABs being lined up to stop him every time. That's 3 bodies out the way before we even consider competing at the breakdown, a better team could make that sort of advantage count. He's very nearly unique in being able to get go forward from nothing. He may not be like Beaumont, Morgan or Hughes, but his one trick is very very good.

 

[Crapspray]

BV is very good, but opponents know exactly what's coming. It'll work at AP level, maybe even 6N, but the big boys won't be frightened of it.

Disagree. In 2013 game against New Zealand, when his game was much more limited, they still struggled to deal with him. Even if they know what's coming, as they did with Tuilagi, he can still be hard to stop. Everyone knows what Savea will do for the All Blacks; not many have stopped him. He was also voted England's forward of the Six Nations this year.

His main difficulty with England is being the only strong carrier in the pack and always taking static ball, so he is easily lined-up with two/three tacklers. When Easter and Attwood played in the Six Nations, and when his brother came on, he made lots of yards and half-breaks.

At Sarries he's in a pack with George, Mako, Kruis, and Itoje - a good set of carriers for the Premiership. Make that George, Mako, Attwood, and Ewers for England and he'd benefit hugely. Add Tuilagi, Yarde/Roko, maybe Brookes, and we could play Warrenball against the best of them.

As said by Raggs, a good England clearout would help too.

 

[Mattybuck]

I wouldn't change the AP, I think with the investments being put in to the squads and other facilities it is maturing as a competition.

I've always felt one element that has held progression back is our weather + grass pitches, this is however is being resolved with the hybrid and 4G pitches now being installed.

This season is suffering from a severe RWC hangover if you ask me. For lots of players pre-season was either interrupted with their clubs or non-existent. Therefore will take a while for clubs to get the A game going.

I future I'd consider a move to the summer, it worked for Super League and I think a March to Sept or April to Oct could work. Don't know how that would fit in with other tournaments, summer tours and Lions Tours though. Probably makes it a non-starter.

We definitely need more the Billy by way of ball carrier for England. We need a lock who operates in the tight environment, such as Attwood alongside you full paddock lock such as Launchbury.

Also a strong carrying 6 would be good, but I'm weary of having two similar players such as Ewers and Billy,my hats who I'd advocate a player such as Beaumont who carries in a different way.