Australia vs England - 3 Tests - June 2016

[ratsapprentice]

Ford certainly has moments of brilliance in him and in my opinion is still better with ball in hand then Faz but to play that poorly in a game with no pressure to speak of is worrying.

Care to explain what (outside of his goalkicking) he did so "poorly"?

So do I, because you, and some Bath fans, seem to be the only one thinking Ford's good enough at the moment.

If that's directed at me then you'd do well to remember that I'm not a "proper" Bath fan.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Burns 4 England!!!!

Care to explain what (outside of his goalkicking) he did so "poorly"?



If that's directed at me then you'd do well to remember that I'm not a "proper" Bath fan.

think he prob talking about Which tyler aswell.

 

[Peat]

And Hodges - not a Baaaaaarf fan are you?

Most of the other forums I use are pro-Ford.

Tigs - If Burns can hit his peak again and stay there, I'm all for that. His performance in the first test in NZ was outstanding and at his best, he's very complete.

 

[Which Tyler]

think he prob talking about Which tyler aswell.

Oh, I'm not "Proper" either (didn't know this board had that distinction) - though I am happy to hold different subjective opinions to other people.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Tigs - If Burns can hit his peak again and stay there, I'm all for that. His performance in the first test in NZ was outstanding and at his best, he's very complete.

Fair enough, I wonder how different things would of been if Lancaster hadn't bottled it in the second test selection, and kept backline for the second test

10) Freddie
11) May
12) Eastmond
13) Manu
14) Yarde
15) Brown

instead of changing it to
10) Faz
11) Yarde
12) 36
13) Burrell
14) Manu
15) Brown

and then hoping the first test backline could pick up the form into the final game.

 

[Aristodemus]

I'm also glad we are sticking with Ford, he may not have had the best season but he is the best fly-half we have to pick from. If we want to go out and beat teams, he is exactly the kind of 10 we need, Farrell isn't.

That said, his goal kicking was awful this weekend but it doesn't concern me. I will put it down to an off day.

 

[ncurd]

What I don't understand in this entire pro-Ford debate is what Ford did wrong yesterday except be **** poor at kicking.

As Faz will likely play 12 against Australia the kicking becomes moot.

But here's the real question if we drop Ford and move Faz to 12 will the replacement inside center be better than Ford/Faz?

If Tualangi was avalible I could understand the argument...otherwise

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not particularly behind the idea of him playing for England but Te'o has the potential to be a beast at 12 for us, when paired with JJ/Daly.


That said I'd rather, if we had Te'o/Tuilagi at 12, we had someone other than Faz at 10.
An on form Ford, or Cipriani, would bring more out of them than Faz, I think. Their short passing game is better than Faz's and that's where Te'o and Tuilagi would dominate - Cipriani has torn defences apart with his short game for Sale, and none of our backs have the carrying power of Manu/Ben

 

[spartan32]

Care to explain what (outside of his goalkicking) he did so "poorly"?



If that's directed at me then you'd do well to remember that I'm not a "proper" Bath fan.

His kicking out of hand was pointless at best. If that had been a SH team they would have been lapping it up. His defence was not great, and he threw more then a couple of pretty poor passes, such as a missile to Burrell who was just a couple of meters from him. In fact he started kicking a lot, one assumes because he didn't back himself with ball in hand.

I'm a Bath fan, I've always been a fan on Ford, but that game was poor, and he's had a difficult season for Bath. I think a great deal of this is in his head, but whatever the reason he needs to sort it out. EJ is the man to restore his confidence, he needs to reward that faith with a good test series.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Whatever the banter, it's going to be an awesome test series

 

[Patchey]

What I don't understand in this entire pro-Ford debate is what Ford did wrong yesterday except be **** poor at kicking.

Awful kicking and generally being poor / rusty, in the first half in particular.

He looked much more composed later on, when he started to kick from hand (his tactical kicking is better than Faz's IMO).

The whole Ford v. Farrell debated has me torn tbh. Don't know who I'd back.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Awful kicking and generally being poor / rusty, in the first half in particular.

He looked much more composed later on, when he started to kick from hand (his tactical kicking is better than Faz's IMO).

The whole Ford v. Farrell debated has me torn tbh. Don't know who I'd back.

I suspect it won't matter as I expect Eddie to stick with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12. At least for the first test v Australia.

 

[johnmac99]

So do I, because you, and some Bath fans, seem to be the only one thinking Ford's good enough at the moment.

...and Eddie Jones

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

At the moment Ford is not doing anything special and I think Farrell is better. However Ford has a higher ceiling than Farrell and I think Jones is hoping that sticking with him will do more to help him regain his confidence than dropping him. Once his confidence is back, he beats Farrell in every aspect except strong tackling. Remember 2 years ago Ford go the lines at Bath and England firing in a way that was similar to SH teams. His kicking % was actually better than Farrells and his tactical kicking was spot on. Having that again will be better than what Farrell can currently produce.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

...and Eddie Jones

Possibly.

With Manu injured and Burrell "8kg overweight" during the 6N we didn't have a 12, and then Faz was unavailable for the Wales test.
We'll see what happens in Aus.
I'd be surprised if Ford wasn't first choice 10, but we don't know for certain at the moment.

 

[johnmac99]

Can we afford to leave 12/14 points on the field against the Aussies?

Is Burrell better than Faz at 12?

Is anyone available better than Faz at 12? Te'o is an unknown quantity and the last game he played he was only 3rd/4th best centre. Slade is also untried at 12 for England, and it's been ages since he played there for his club.

Eddie will start with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12, IMO.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It will be interesting to see if/how much Burrell is used - EJ has been very complimentary of him, and he was selected over Devoto, who was in during the 6N so knows the systems etc.

 

[Peat]

His kicking out of hand was pointless at best. If that had been a SH team they would have been lapping it up. His defence was not great, and he threw more then a couple of pretty poor passes, such as a missile to Burrell who was just a couple of meters from him. In fact he started kicking a lot, one assumes because he didn't back himself with ball in hand.

I'm a Bath fan, I've always been a fan on Ford, but that game was poor, and he's had a difficult season for Bath. I think a great deal of this is in his head, but whatever the reason he needs to sort it out. EJ is the man to restore his confidence, he needs to reward that faith with a good test series.

Since I spent the evening rewatching it and making notes...

Two up and unders from just outside our 22, both contested, the latter resulting in England regaining possession (14.50 and 15.30).

One charged down (43?)

One kick from inside our half to touch in their 22 (53.23)

One kick into space in their 22 which sits up and eventually leads to the turnover that creates Yarde's try (59.01)

One kick from a scrum in our own half which lands in space, bounces past the full-back and leads to a Welsh ruck in their own 22 (64.50)

One kick for touch after tracking back to rescue a kick through on our own goal line (65.30)

One clearing kick which gives them a pretty free counter-attack from just inside their own half - bit crap to be honest (65.40)

One kick from our half into space in the centre of their 22 - bounces and they have to eventually kick their way out (69)

All but three kicks (including the charge down) either ended up contested or land in space and lead to the Welsh having to play from their 22. I don't get what's pointless about those outcomes; I'd have said the opposite. And one of those was a clearance after sweeping.


Kicking a lot towards the end smells of game plan when Care ended up with only one less kick than Youngs despite playing about twenty less minutes. Pinning back the opposition when you have a big lead is hardly an unusual game plan.


And you're right, he did have more than a couple of bad passes... one more. Three of them. The missile at Burrell, the loopy ball to Yarde which left him with nothing on, and one pass to no one that ended up bouncing to Jack Clifford. More than there should be in fairness. Although the loopy one to Yarde was only a bad decision, not a technically poor pass, to be pedantic.


And his defence was fine. Gave up a few easy yards here and there but didn't miss a tackle. Relied on his forwards to do most of the work but as they did, no dramas. Hardly a challenging match.


I suppose I might be suffering from confirmation bias but, I've watch that game a few times. He conducted the multi-phase play well bar a few hiccups, made the right plays when a try was on, kicked sensibly - kick-offs were nice too - swept well when required and didn't get exposed in defence and really, really sucked at goal kicking. Although I'm not sure why a guy who's gone back into his shell would volunteer to take a non-gimme kick in the 70th minute of a won game after that day. On the non-goal kicking part of his game though, I'd like more but that was acceptable. Poor? Wasn't what I saw.

 

[ncurd]

Can we afford to leave 12/14 points on the field against the Aussies?

Whilst I'll be honest and say I've seen Ford have kicking displays like this before so has just about every other England fly half I can think of. The reality as his AP kicking % show against Farrell's these don't happen often enough to be a concern.

I'll be surprised if his kicking in Australia but it won't be because of this performance.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Only got round to watching it last night on record, I'd echoing those people asking what the hell Ford did wrong that wasn't goalkicking? He got the line moving nicely, kicked out of hand well, got away with it in defence ... I think he's just the latest fashionable player to bash to be honest.

Goalkicking is a major concern though. Ford used to have meltdowns like that from time to time, but hadn't for a couple of years and never for England. If that side of his game which I thought he'd banished comes back then we do have serious problems.