A Political Thread

[Cruz_del_Sur]

An alt-righter saying this is hilarious

C'mon Oly, you can make the very same argument without using unnecessary labels.

Cruz also more or less strictly stayed on the Pandemic v Protest argument too, racism was a secondary issue for him.

I wouldn't say it's secondary but i get what you mean. Strictly speaking, it is probably secondary. Allow me to elaborate: in my line of work you tend to catalogue problems in 4 categories: basically all the iterations you can have between important/not-so-important and urgent/not-so-urgent.
Other than a world war, an asteroid about to hit the earth or an alien attack, i can't think of anything that ticks more boxes in terms of importance and urgency than a global pandemic for which there is no vaccine nor cure.

I tried to focus on the protest itself more than the reason for the protest as i think that makes the conversation about it more amicable and argument based as opposed to resorting to fallacies and name-calling. My biased experience.

Come on Steve-o. This thread, has the biggest potential to get any member banned on the forum... That is why we are more "loose" when it comes to moderating this thread, as the topics of politics are the ones that are the most sensitive to posters as it covers all the potential pitfalls: Race, Religion, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Violence etc.

I agree with most of this and i don't see any problems with the way things are being handled so far. Kudos for that. I'm quite libertarian when it comes to free speech.
Having said that, let me ask you this: hypothetically, if someone here were to say s/he didn't consider transwomen to be women, not because s/he wanted to deny any of the person's rights, but as a matter of semantics/definition, would s/he be warned/banned?

Basically my question is if the tolerance and leniency you ask from Steve goes both ways with the site's management. Not saying it doesn't, i just dont know.
I don't post much in this section of the forum but form what I've read, it looks as if people on one particular side of the spectrum cross lines in the sand at will while the ones standing at the other end have to walk on eggshells.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

not because s/he wanted to deny any of the person's rights

Surely denying their existence is denying their rights?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

50% off meals at selected restaurants, monday to friday, for August, up to a maximum of £10 is........not exactly the rumoured £500 per person.

 

[ncurd]

As someone who has been warned on an occasion or two (it really isn't that often you can count them on one hand for the entire time I've been on this forum) to tone down their posts in this thread I would happily say it very even handed if you accept the warnings. there is also a huge amount leeway given here than there would be in any sport thread and the amount of people banned for their posts in this thread have been very small. steve-o would of been banned on many other forums long before now for constantly posting half truth and unreliable sources. I also don't think the moderators are wrong to do so, I've stuck him on the ignore list because the level of bullshit just makes me angry.

Anyway point being you have to cross a massive line to get banned in this thread the last person which was the first in ages was for outright racisim.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The cut to stamp duty is big for those looking to buy homes (hopefully restricted to 1 home buyers and not to encourage and benefit those with more than 1 property already) and also temporary VAT cut for the hospitality and tourism from 20% to 5% is pretty significant, which will be reflected in prices paid.

Green grants of £5k per household I would be looking to take advantage of.

of course, the devil is in the detail, so will be looking carefully at Rishi's proposals.

 

[ncurd]

The cut to stamp duty is big for those looking to buy homes (hopefully restricted to 1 home buyers and not to encourage and benefit those with more than 1 property already) and also temporary VAT cut for the hospitality and tourism from 20% to 5% is pretty significant, which will be reflected in prices paid.

Green grants of £5k per household I would be looking to take advantage of.

of course, the devil is in the detail, so will be looking carefully at Rishi's proposals.

Stamp duty already doesn't exist for first time buyers

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/tools/house-buying/stamp-duty-calculator#:~:text=First%2Dtime%20buyers%20are%20entitled,%C2%A3300%2C001%20and%20%C2%A3350%2C000

.

I know because I had to neogotiate when I bought my house last year because the builder was offering to pay our stamp duty and we were already exempt.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Unfortunately I feel we have got to the stage where we could have solid evidence that trump spends the vast majority of his time fisting himself and his supporters would either deny it or not care.

Yes, Trump is famous for boasting he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and still wouldn't lose any voters. That really reflects his support base. As long as he keeps standing up for them they will keep voting for him. But I think the book is aimed at those voters in those swing states who have grown tired of his presidency.

The fact his niece has a doctorate in Clinical psychology and is his niece will add further credibility to the claims in her book.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Stamp duty already doesn't exist for first time buyers

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/tools/house-buying/stamp-duty-calculator#:~:text=First%2Dtime%20buyers%20are%20entitled,%C2%A3300%2C001%20and%20%C2%A3350%2C000

.

I know because I had to neogotiate when I bought my house last year because the builder was offering to pay our stamp duty and we were already exempt.

up to a certain threshold right? So this scheme just extends it to non first time buyers. Will review later and see what it says. What it shouldn't do is reward buy to let buyers and also I would say non-UK investors looking to take advantage. I am sure there will be anti avoidance measures put in place. Just makes the tax legislation even more complicated Than it is already.

 

[ncurd]

up to a certain threshold right? So this scheme just extends it to non first time buyers. Will review later and see what it says. What it shouldn't do is reward buy to let buyers and also I would say non-UK investors looking to take advantage. I am sure there will be anti avoidance measures put in place. Just makes the tax legislation even more complicated Than it is already.

Yeah but the thresholds are fairly sensible on the 'well if you can buy a house that expensive' test.

Reality is a stamp duty isn't the barrier gor first time buyers it's deposits Help to Buy schemes help a lot along those lines but even 5% requires a large amount of savings. That are difficult to build up whilst renting. The madness of course is my mortgage is a good 300 pounds a month cheaper than my rent was.

Breaking down the barriers to ownership and buy to let is one of the many pillars in that way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That job/wage subsidy thing is interesting and ripe for abuse if not careful - paying the first 25hrs of minimum wage.
Going to see a lot of 25hr contracts popping up at supermarkets/wetherspoons etc

 

[ncurd]

https://twitter.com/i/events/1280816415939821568?s=20

Well worth watching.

 

[Yulia]

The madness of course is my mortgage is a good 300 pounds a month cheaper than my rent was.

Here in Poland mortgages are also cheaper to pay (per month) now due to Coronavirus crisis. But at the same time it's much more complicated to get a mortgage positive decision now. I'm currently in the process to take a mortgage and noticed they imposed new rules,a lot of restrictions (especially for single people like me) etc so it becomes really hard to get it unfortunately

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yeah but the thresholds are fairly sensible on the 'well if you can buy a house that expensive' test.

Reality is a stamp duty isn't the barrier gor first time buyers it's deposits Help to Buy schemes help a lot along those lines but even 5% requires a large amount of savings. That are difficult to build up whilst renting. The madness of course is my mortgage is a good 300 pounds a month cheaper than my rent was.

Breaking down the barriers to ownership and buy to let is one of the many pillars in that way.

But every little helps. Down in the south east a half a million house like in London might not get you a 2 bedroom place in a good area. £15k saving on a house up to £500k house can instead be put towards furnishing the house.

My parents generation were truly spoiled. They bought their house for £70k back in the early 80s. But interest rates were a lot higher as my dad keeps reminding me. But it's now worth 10 times that. And a A lot of first time buyers from our generation have had to rely on bank of mum and dad to get on the property ladder.

Unlike the continent renting here is just paying a landlords' mortgage whilst they enjoy the eventual capital appreciation on the property on sale. That's why it is a no brainer to get on the property ladder. Getting on it is another matter I appreciate with hefty deposits required to get a mortgage from the banks and building societies and having to pay off the mortgage for the next 25 or so years.

 

[Johnny Storm]

Property in Britain, particularly in England has been a national obsession for the last 25 years. I have known serious professionals like doctors and solicitors who have given up their careers to become buy/sell property developers.

Others I know have become millionaires off the back of two house sales and moves. Blair and Brown let it all get completely out of hand. It's a nonsense and the boomers have had a massive advantage. Two up, two downs going for 16k in 1980 are now worth 350k.
I bought a house in Cardiff 8 years ago which I could never afford now, despite earning more.

Having an entire generation of youngsters almost completely disenfranchised from what is an essential comodity is not a good thing.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It was actually Thatcher and her allowing Council tenants to buy their properties which started this whole housing boom way back in the 80s and obsession to own your own property. Successive governments after that allowed it to get out of hand and encouraged it. But yes, it is not necessarily a good thing in terms of people not saving and just relying on the equity on their houses for their retirement and as as you said a greater disparity between the haves and have nots trying to get on the housing ladder. Still, as the saying goes an Englishman is his castle and that has really taken root.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's the rental market that needs a good slap - don't know how anyone is expected to save for a deposit when rent is so ludicrously high.

 

[Yulia]

There's now a significant boom in property prices in Poland. I've bought a small flat 3 years ago (that was really cheap) and now it costs twice as expensive! Crisis influenced on people's desire to have their own property (and to feel themselves protected like that). We saw it in Russia during huge crisis in the 90s for example. It wasn't safe to rent an apartment, that's why it's a "Russian dream" now to have your own place, people's main aim. I think it's always growing during crisis time,in every country : maybe same reason for a "housing boom" in the UK in the 80s.

(Yes, I suck at rugby, politics, English language, I'm not from the UK/the US and,what is the worst, I'm a girl, but I'm bored and also want to participate in the conversation at least by talking about Poland/Russia).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I do find it staggering that I work in a professional career (civil engineer 4 years experience) and yet rent sucks up roughly 1/3rd of my after tax earning instantly. Being careful I could put away maybe £400-500 per month and that is with little to no expenses beyond what is necessary. Even with my help to buy ISA, I'd be looking at nearly 5 years saving just to afford the 20% deposit on a 100k house without some sort of additional external funding (parents). Meaning I'm early to mid 30's before I'm even in some poxy little house.

This situation is just ridiculous. The only way to get a house is with external help or with a partner.

 

[TRF_heineken]

C'mon Oly, you can make the very same argument without using unnecessary labels.


I wouldn't say it's secondary but i get what you mean. Strictly speaking, it is probably secondary. Allow me to elaborate: in my line of work you tend to catalogue problems in 4 categories: basically all the iterations you can have between important/not-so-important and urgent/not-so-urgent.
Other than a world war, an asteroid about to hit the earth or an alien attack, i can't think of anything that ticks more boxes in terms of importance and urgency than a global pandemic for which there is no vaccine nor cure.

I tried to focus on the protest itself more than the reason for the protest as i think that makes the conversation about it more amicable and argument based as opposed to resorting to fallacies and name-calling. My biased experience.


I agree with most of this and i don't see any problems with the way things are being handled so far. Kudos for that. I'm quite libertarian when it comes to free speech.
Having said that, let me ask you this: hypothetically, if someone here were to say s/he didn't consider transwomen to be women, not because s/he wanted to deny any of the person's rights, but as a matter of semantics/definition, would s/he be warned/banned?

Basically my question is if the tolerance and leniency you ask from Steve goes both ways with the site's management. Not saying it doesn't, i just dont know.
I don't post much in this section of the forum but form what I've read, it looks as if people on one particular side of the spectrum cross lines in the sand at will while the ones standing at the other end have to walk on eggshells.

Anyone posting here or anywhere else on this forum should take account for what they post. As they run the risk of being warned/posts deleted/banned based on what they say. Us moderators also fall in this bracket, as we are first and foremost also just posters, and we are also human, with both objective and subjective views.

I think we try our best to handle each confrontational topic to the best of our abilities without the need to be overly excessive in the punishment. if a post is reported we will investigate. If not, then the possibility is that it might completely slip our radar, so it really all depends on other members and how they perceive posts and whether a post is breaching a rule or moral value contradictory to their own views.

 

[Gavin]

Liz Truss warns Boris Johnson over Brexit border plans | Brexit | The Guardian

International trade secretary tells PM and chancellor plans risk smuggling and damage to UK reputation

www.google.com

An extraordinary cabinet row has erupted over Brexit with Liz Truss warning that Boris Johnson's border plans risk smuggling, damage to the UK's international reputation and could face a legal challenge from the World Trade Organization.

Damn project fear - lolz.