A Political Thread pt. 2

[McTallshort]

Military intelligence is certainly a factor as it is with all of a nations states allies. But if the assertion is, Isreal are as bad as Hamas, which was the viewpoint originally stated, why is there no budge from America in terms of support against the state itself? It can't be just militarily (possible I suppose) there has to be some kind of moral alignment as well. I.e Isreal is a liberal democracy which is pretty unique for that region of the world.

You might want to look back at what very dodgy states America has backed in the past for a strategic advantage. As for Israel being a liberal democracy, it is for its region but we certainly wouldn't want it here.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You might want to look back at what very dodgy states America has backed in the past for a strategic advantage. As for Israel being a liberal democracy, it is for its region but we certainly wouldn't want it here.

Well obviously, we still to this day deal with all kinds of different horrific regimes but there's a difference between dealing with and backing/recognising a country as a sovereign, independent nation.

It is for the region was one of my points, most Arab nations tend to be dictatorships and Isreal is a Liberal Democracy with legitimate elections. Their views on self government, free markets, sexual liberation, religious freedom etc etc are all more or less in line with ours.

 

[McTallshort]

Their views on self government, free markets, sexual liberation, religious freedom etc etc are all more or less in line with ours.

It's their views on ethnic cleansing, having a functioning apartheid policy and heavy handed anti insurgency tactics that aren't.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's their views on ethnic cleansing, having a functioning apartheid policy and heavy handed anti insurgency tactics that aren't.

Then I come back to my original question, why do we see Amercia, and the West in general, still supporting Israel's right to defend itself? Why do we still support them? I mean, all the things you've mentioned we're dead against and have even directly gone into countries when those things have taken place previously.
Why would we count them among our allies is it 100% down to strategic military reasons? I can accept that's a significant factor but there must be more?

It also could be, there they appreciate the nuance and uniqueness in the Isreal/palestine conflict and don't see everything quite as black and white as people on here because the world rarely is black and white.

 

[McTallshort]

Why would we count them among our allies is it 100% down to strategic military reasons? I can accept that's a significant factor but there must be more?

Why must there be more? America supported a vile regime in South Vietnam with the death of 50k soldiers just because the North was communist, it's support of Israel is relatively minor in comparison.

We are also Allies with Saudi Arabia and have supported their ethnic cleansing in Yeman for no other reason than they a rivel to Iran.

I'm really not getting your point here, are you saying because America and some other western nations support Israel then that automatically makes them the good guys in any flare up in hostilities in the region? If so that's very naïve

 

[Welsh Exile]

Why must there be more? America supported a vile regime in South Vietnam with the death of 50k soldiers just because the North was communist, it's support of Israel is relatively minor in comparison.

We are also Allies with Saudi Arabia and have supported their ethnic cleansing in Yeman for no other reason than they a rivel to Iran.

I'm really not getting your point here, are you saying because America and some other western nations support Israel then that automatically makes them the good guys in any flare up in hostilities in the region? If so that's very naïve

As I said there's a difference between doing dealings with (Saudi) and supporting allies (Isreal) my point being that perhaps America and the West in general don't see it quite the same way as you are portraying (apartheid, ethnic cleansing etc) Perhaps the reason why America hasn't issued warrants or whatever that original article alluded to re the Hamas leadership, is because they see a clear distinction between October 7th and Israel's response. In short, America, and the west in general, will always support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not because they purely want a friend in a hostile region and are willing to cosy up to a horrible regime. The relationship goes deeper than that but it's automatically easier to align yourself with a democracy but as I said, we're more than willing to do deals with dictatorships but I wouldn't say it goes beyond that, although it would be nice if we didn't do any deals with dictators but that's not how the world works.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Going to ignore the murder aspect of this argument because it's emotive and I'm trying to avoid that on here.

Ireland is neutral and has no military strategy outside of UN peacekeeping. We've stated that Israel are targeting civilians in addition to Hamas and continuously condemn them.

Spain continue to press the relevant authorities in the EU to examine the conflict for Israeli war crimes.

The big supporters of Israel all have their own very obvious internal reasons to support Israel outside of military reasons also:

US - Massive Jewish Lobby
UK - Created the country and the problem
Germany - Obvious

Public reaction to this in the west is like it was for Vietnam and Apartheid.

I think in the it's fair to look for nuance in the current climate of world news. However, when it comes to killing civilians, who are mostly children en masse, all thr nuance on earth won't stop those killers from being the bad guys (even if their opponents are also bad).

 

[Welsh Exile]

Why don't Hamas put all the children in the tunnels they built? They wouldn't want them dead would they? I'd say that's some nuance that's worth considering.

If Isreal could click their fingers and kill all Hamas and kill no civilians they would. If Hamas could click their fingers and wipe out all the Jews on the planet they'd do it without a seconds hesitation.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Why don't Hamas put all the children in the tunnels they built? They wouldn't want them dead would they? I'd say that's some nuance that's worth considering.

If Isreal could click their fingers and kill all Hamas and kill no civilians they would. If Hamas could click their fingers and wipe out all the Jews on the planet they'd do it without a seconds hesitation.

I had a massive post written out but deleted it. Google 'Israeli Propaganda' and most results will respond to.your points better than I can.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There is support for Israel largely because it gives a strategic advantage to do so (it's highly unlikely Israel will become outright hostile to the west in the foreseeable future, whereas the likes of Hamas already are). Generally the west gets on poorly with Muslim nations unless large sums of money are involved. Israel offers a relatively wealthy nation with a developed research industry and other things that surrounding nations simply don't have nor will they have.

I think as well perceptions on Israel are tempered by the fact that every nation around Israel has tried to destroy it in its short existence, I struggle to imagine that any well-meaning nations distantly isolated from such hostility would remain so if that hostility was on their doorstep.

Whilst there are arguments to be made about the manner in which the state of Israel came into being, the fact is it does exist now and that is something that can't really be undone. Everyone needs to learn to live with this reality. The issue is there are a sizeable chunk of people who can't. Israel has a sort of national psyche of never allowing something like the holocaust to happen again, which has made them quite belligerent and militaristic. They are also fully aware of how ridiculously they wag the US dog and lean heavily into that to get away with stuff that the USA wouldn't accept from literally any other nation, including us.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I had a massive post written out but deleted it. Google 'Israeli Propaganda' and most results will respond to.your points better than I can.

Nah, Israeli propaganda is rubbish, they're not very good at it, or at least nowhere near as good as Hamas where it's a central part of their strategy. It's like how Isreal won't release full footage of October 7th. Hamas will put that **** on Dolby surround sound and get the popcorn out.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Nah, Israeli propaganda is rubbish, they're not very good at it, or at least nowhere near as good as Hamas where it's a central part of their strategy. It's like how Isreal won't release full footage of October 7th. Hamas will put that **** on Dolby surround sound and get the popcorn out.

Well you've used the Ottomans, original displacing of the Jews and, in your last post, dehumanising Palestinian children so you've been caught hook, line and sinker by rubbish propaganda.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Well you've used the Ottomans, original displacing of the Jews and, in your last post, dehumanising Palestinian children so you've been caught hook, line and sinker by rubbish propaganda.

Sorry is citing historical fact like the Ottomans ruled over an area prior to the British mandate after WW1 propaganda now, I mean, I'm not even expressing a biased personal viewpoint there, it's literal fact. I could've referenced Jordan's or Egypt's occupation over it as well what difference does that make. How have I dehumanised Palestinian children.

Honestly I'm a main stream media guy. I dread to think where you get your views on this topic from.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Oh actually, to be honest, I do listen to Sam Harris who I'm sure you hate but he comes at this, like me, from a very atheistic point of view but he's not so brain dead that he sees Hamas the same as the IDF.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sorry is citing historical fact like the Ottomans ruled over an area prior to the British mandate after WW1 propaganda now, I mean, I'm not even expressing a biased personal viewpoint there, it's literal fact. I could've referenced Jordan's or Egypt's occupation over it as well what difference does that make. How have I dehumanised Palestinian children.

Propaganda is biased or misleading information to promote a political viewpoint. The Ottomans and original displacing of the Jews is historical fact but has nothing to do with the current conflict. If you can't see that, you're lost.

"Hamas should throw the kids in the war tunnels to protect them from the good people who are dropping bombs from the sky" is pretty dehumanising.

Honestly I'm a main stream media guy. I dread to think where you get your views on this topic from.

I haven't read or listened to a single opinion piece on this. I just follow the events and consider 20th century history, mostly post WWII at that. What I do is use discernment to realise there's no war here; Hamas can't touch Israel without them negligently ignoring multiple intelligence warnings like on 7 October. It's a humanitarian crisis / early stages of genocide. I've only ever supported a ceasefire, like the UN.

Actually on that point, the closest I get to biased news is taking note of who supports what. Non-conservative and educated people tend to be on the side of the Palestinian people and it's in line with this demographic supporting women's rights on abortion, gay rights, civil rights or being against the war in Vietnam and Apartheid. I'm comfortable with this. Trump and Rishi Sunak support Israel. I'm comfortable disagreeing with Tories and Republicans.

Oh actually, to be honest, I do listen to Sam Harris who I'm sure you hate but he comes at this, like me, from a very atheistic point of view but he's not so brain dead that he sees Hamas the same as the IDF.

I've just read two of his articles. Islamophobe (to the point he tries to deny that Islamophobia is real) who, like you, conflates support for ceasefire and for the Palestinian people with support for Hamas. I suggest you move on from him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Propaganda is biased or misleading information to promote a political viewpoint. The Ottomans and original displacing of the Jews is historical fact but has nothing to do with the current conflict. If you can't see that, you're lost.

"Hamas should throw the kids in the war tunnels to protect them from the good people who are dropping bombs from the sky" is pretty dehumanising.


I haven't read or listened to a single opinion piece on this. I just follow the events and consider 20th century history, mostly post WWII at that. What I do is use discernment to realise there's no war here; Hamas can't touch Israel without them negligently ignoring multiple intelligence warnings like on 7 October. It's a humanitarian crisis / early stages of genocide. I've only ever supported a ceasefire, like the UN.

Actually on that point, the closest I get to biased news is taking note of who supports what. Non-conservative and educated people tend to be on the side of the Palestinian people and it's in line with this demographic supporting women's rights on abortion, gay rights, civil rights or being against the war in Vietnam and Apartheid. I'm comfortable with this. Trump and Rishi Sunak support Israel. I'm comfortable disagreeing with Tories and Republicans.



I've just read two of his articles. Islamophobe (to the point he tries to deny that Islamophobia is real) who, like you, conflates support for ceasefire and for the Palestinian people with support for Hamas. I suggest you move on from him.

The Ottomans point was just to illustrate that various empires and countries, not just the Ottomans have ruled over this area. That's it. Nothing more. The Jews didn't even do what the Ottomans and other countries did before them where they did conquer a land by force. Isreal was gifted land and they also purchased a small amount between the late 19th century and up to the 20s (I believe)

Can you name 1 measure Hamas has taken to protect its own people? You must concede it's a pretty unique situation to be in where a government (I use the term loosely with Hamas) has no regard for its own population. They strap bombs on toddlers mate. It's a funny take that you think I'm dehumanising Palestinian children, though.

I must say, if you analyse the world by who thinks what then that says it all and is extremely worrying in terms of how you come to opinions on anything. I actually don't know how to respond to that other than to say you do realise lots of democrats and people on the left support Israel's right to exist and defend itself just as there are people on the right who lean Palestinian.. Even your own Irish government believe this. **** me, I would even consider myself pro Palestinian as I, like most rational people, accept no one has their hands clean in this nearly century long conflict and Palestine most certainly deserves to have a international recognised State.

You've probably misinterpreted what he wrote but he certainly strongly opposes Islamism which most people would. Rory Stewart even made this mistake a recent podcast and had to apologise for, deliberately imo, misconstruing what he said. Maybe you could post the articles you read. But yeah, unlike you I don't analyse sources by who the person is and I'm perfectly capable with agreeing with some people on some topics and disagreeing with them on others, like I do with Sam Harris.

How do you think Hamas or the surrounding Arab nations feel about gay rights and woman's rights?

 

[Which Tyler]

Could someone please PM me when the back and forth bickering over whether genocide is a good thing or a bad thing is finished, so I can get back to following the thread?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Could someone please PM me when the back and forth bickering over whether genocide is a good thing or a bad thing is finished, so I can get back to following the thread?

Thanks in advance.

Do you have any proof there is a genocide going on?

Edit, ideally a response that doesn't contain killing people = bad= genocide because there is a highly specialised intent bar to hit when it comes to genocide.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Ottomans point was just to illustrate that various empires and countries, not just the Ottomans have ruled over this area. That's it. Nothing more. The Jews didn't even do what the Ottomans and other countries did before them where they did conquer a land by force. Isreal was gifted land and they also purchased a small amount between the late 19th century and up to the 20s (I believe)

And then drove innocent people out of their homes and confined them to an open air prison.

Can you name 1 measure Hamas has taken to protect its own people? You must concede it's a pretty unique situation to be in where a government (I use the term loosely with Hamas) has no regard for its own population. They strap bombs on toddlers mate. It's a funny take that you think I'm dehumanising Palestinian children, though.

I don't support Hamas. Stop using them to hide your total lack of compassion. Your refusal to acknowledge the humanitarian crises and calls for ceasefire is telling.

I must say, if you analyse the world by who thinks what then that says it all and is extremely worrying in terms of how you come to opinions on anything. I actually don't know how to respond to that other than to say you do realise lots of democrats and people on the left support Israel's right to exist and defend itself just as there are people on the right who lean Palestinian.. Even your own Irish government believe this. **** me, I would even consider myself pro Palestinian as I, like most rational people, accept no one has their hands clean in this nearly century long conflict and Palestine most certainly deserves to have a international recognised State.

I said I take note of what people are supporting, not let that make my mind up for me and generally do so after I form an initial opinion. But if I was in line with Trump and Truss, I'd really consider my approach. In fact, this has happened to me many times in life where my initial reaction to something was one way and it changed after seeing public and political reaction and looking further into facts. Having the ability to change your mind or realise you were wrong is not weakness.

I didn't mention democrats in my last post either.

My government has been warning Israel not to go too far in "defending itself" since 8 October. Israel is not defending itself and Ireland does not support what they're doing.

You're not pro Palestinian if you support the current bombing over a ceasefire.

You've probably misinterpreted what he wrote but he certainly strongly opposes Islamism which most people would. Rory Stewart even made this mistake a recent podcast and had to apologise for, deliberately imo, misconstruing what he said. Maybe you could post the articles you read. But yeah, unlike you I don't analyse sources by who the person is and I'm perfectly capable with agreeing with some people on some topics and disagreeing with them on others, like I do with Sam Harris.

**** me thats condescending.

I've done a bit of research this morning and Sam Harris has been getting accused of Islamophobia since 2013. Ben Affleck has even accused him of it to his face its so prominent. Not portraying Affleck of being some moral beacon here before you claim that, but if an Oscar winner is calling you islamophobic on live TV you're doing something to perpetuate that reputation. I didn't misinterpret a thing.

He's one of Dawkins mates. If I wanted well thought out reasons as to why God doesn't exist, they'd be my first port of call. Their views on this conflict is essentially that they hate Islam more than Judaism so I think I'll pass.

How do you think Hamas or the surrounding Arab nations feel about gay rights and woman's rights?

Hey, more Israeli propaganda! Nice one. Lets kill more kids!

If you respond again with such a condescending, superior, compassionless post that insinuates I support Hamas, I won't reply.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Man, you should watch that video with him and Affleck. It's hilarious how child like Afflecks thinking is. If you're using that as evidence of his Islamophobia I suggest you watch the video.

I do support a ceasefire, I've supported one for ages and as you know I have little sympathy for Israeli settlers in the West Bank due to the illegality of their actions. But that doesn't mean I don't also, as I do with ordinary Palestinians, sympathise with the Israeli position.

You're the one captured with propaganda and I'm sorry I just think you're lying when you say you don't consume any media on this topic when you use terms like open air prison.