A Political Thread pt. 2

[Welsh Exile]

Could someone please PM me when the back and forth bickering over whether genocide is a good thing or a bad thing is finished, so I can get back to following the thread?

Thanks in advance.

Still waiting for that undeniable proof there's a genocide going on seeing as you can speak about it so matter of factly like it's a given. It's a pretty serious charge to levy.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Man, you should watch that video with him and Affleck. It's hilarious how child like Afflecks thinking is. If you're using that as evidence of his Islamophobia I suggest you watch the video.

I expressly didn't do that. I presume Affleck was out of his league, hes hasnt a fraction of the experience in debates as Harris presumably does. However, if you read the following quote and agree or don't see any islamophobia then we think very differently.

It is time we admitted that we are not at war with "terrorism." We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. The only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us. Every American should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages. The idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion hijacked by extremists" is a dangerous fantasy — and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge.

He's using purposeful misinterpretation of the qaran (which only allows violence in defence of the person or land) to condemn the entire religion.

I do support a ceasefire, I've supported one for ages and as you know I have little sympathy for Israeli settlers in the West Bank due to the illegality of their actions. But that doesn't mean I don't also, as I do with ordinary Palestinians, sympathise with the Israeli position.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Blaming Hamas for civilian deaths and continued conflict after nearly a year of relentless bombing of civilians and Hamas not laying another finger on Israel (because they can't without Israeli incompetence) isn't support of a ceasefire. Israel went too far long ago and the onus is on them to stop.

You're the one captured with propaganda and I'm sorry I just think you're lying when you say you don't consume any media on this topic when you use terms like open air prison.

I have seen Palestine flags flown in Croke Park for over 10 years and have witnessed protests for as long. I was fully aware of this term long before 7 October.

 

[Which Tyler]

Michel Barnier named by Macron as new French PM

French President Emmanuel Macron has named Michel Barnier as prime minister almost two months after France's snap elections ended in political deadlock.

www.bbc.co.uk

I really can't see him lasting - expect a vote of no confidence at the first available opportunity.
Truss raced a lettuce, suspect Barnier's racing a bottle of milk - that's been left out on the side.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I expressly didn't do that. I presume Affleck was out of his league, hes hasnt a fraction of the experience in debates as Harris presumably does. However, if you read the following quote and agree or don't see any islamophobia then we think very differently.

It is time we admitted that we are not at war with "terrorism." We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. The only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us. Every American should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages. The idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion hijacked by extremists" is a dangerous fantasy — and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge.

He's using purposeful misinterpretation of the qaran (which only allows violence in defence of the person or land) to condemn the entire religion.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Blaming Hamas for civilian deaths and continued conflict after nearly a year of relentless bombing of civilians and Hamas not laying another finger on Israel (because they can't without Israeli incompetence) isn't support of a ceasefire. Israel went too far long ago and the onus is on them to stop.


I have seen Palestine flags flown in Croke Park for over 10 years and have witnessed protests for as long. I was fully aware of this term long before 7 October.

Yes, it is quite possible to both recognise that a main part of Hamas' strategy in this war is for as many of their civilians to die as possible*, and at the same time wanting a ceasefire. I would attribute more moral blame to Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians as this was clearly their plan all along, but that does not mean I attribute no moral blame to Isreal either. I would still caveat this heavily with not knowing any numbers but I would hope, at this point, Isreal have done significant damage to Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. I've thought this for at least a few months now.

On the Sam Harris quote he's clearly talking about Jihadism and Islamic fundamentlaism. I also agree and think almost undeniable, that while these aspects of extremism exist in every religion (that Harris also calls out) that the fringes are much larger in the Muslim world. The greatest victims of Jihadism and Islamic fundamentalism are Muslims themselves and I hope we see a change. As a side note you say it only allows for violence against the person or land, how is violence defined? Is your wife cheating on you classed as violent like I dunno punishable by stoning or lashing a woman. Is being gay, is being an atheist or saying things against Islam violent? Or merely wanting to leave the religion. Hopefully, as time passes, they can pull the same tricks the Christian's have largely pulled today to move with the times and say "oh yeah that bit isn't to be taken literally" obviously big up to all the Muslims who are liberal Muslims today, as I say they are the greatest victims of what Sam is talking about.

*this is evident by not building a single bomb shelter for civilians, operating out of civilian areas like schools and hospitals and using civilian clothing, using them as human shields, not giving access to tunnels, shooting civilians trying to flee areas Israel have warned they are going to bomb and literally doing nothing to protect their population. Imagine if they even built just 1 bomb shelter that could shelter say 500 people, imagine if Isreal hit that shelter it would be game over for Isreal from an international point of view but Hamas don't want to take that risk, they'll do all the things I mentioned above, that will guarantee them enough death that they utilise for their propaganda war. Its sick and as I say I largely blame them for this plan of theirs

 

[Yulia]

Could someone please PM me when the back and forth bickering over whether genocide is a good thing or a bad thing is finished, so I can get back to following the thread?

Thanks in advance.

Wait a minute,Welsh Exile and Leonormous Boozer have almost reached consensus!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Wait a minute,Welsh Exile and Leonormous Boozer have almost reached consensus!

The funny thing is that while we obviously have different interpretations of the history (neither of us are exactly history scholars) we both believe in a 2 state solution and we both believe Isreal has the right to exist and defend itself.

We obviously disagree about things like Isreal is committing genocide and the nuances around a century old ongoing conflict but in terms of solution we agree.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes, it is quite possible to both recognise that a main part of Hamas' strategy in this war is for as many of their civilians to die as possible*, and at the same time wanting a ceasefire. I would attribute more moral blame to Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians as this was clearly their plan all along, but that does not mean I attribute no moral blame to Isreal either. I would still caveat this heavily with not knowing any numbers but I would hope, at this point, Isreal have done significant damage to Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. I've thought this for at least a few months now.

On the Sam Harris quote he's clearly talking about Jihadism and Islamic fundamentlaism. I also agree and think almost undeniable, that while these aspects of extremism exist in every religion (that Harris also calls out) that the fringes are much larger in the Muslim world. The greatest victims of Jihadism and Islamic fundamentalism are Muslims themselves and I hope we see a change. As a side note you say it only allows for violence against the person or land, how is violence defined? Is your wife cheating on you classed as violent like I dunno punishable by stoning or lashing a woman. Is being gay, is being an atheist or saying things against Islam violent? Or merely wanting to leave the religion. Hopefully, as time passes, they can pull the same tricks the Christian's have largely pulled today to move with the times and say "oh yeah that bit isn't to be taken literally" obviously big up to all the Muslims who are liberal Muslims today, as I say they are the greatest victims of what Sam is talking about.

*this is evident by not building a single bomb shelter for civilians, operating out of civilian areas like schools and hospitals and using civilian clothing, using them as human shields, not giving access to tunnels, shooting civilians trying to flee areas Israel have warned they are going to bomb and literally doing nothing to protect their population. Imagine if they even built just 1 bomb shelter that could shelter say 500 people, imagine if Isreal hit that shelter it would be game over for Isreal from an international point of view but Hamas don't want to take that risk, they'll do all the things I mentioned above, that will guarantee them enough death that they utilise for their propaganda war. Its sick and as I say I largely blame them for this plan of theirs

I think most of this is a very generous / rose tinted interpretation of what Israel and Harris are as well as not seeing the reality of Hamas' severely limited capabilities and the reason for their existence but I don't think it's worth getting into the minutiae.

The funny thing is that while we obviously have different interpretations of the history (neither of us are exactly history scholars) we both believe in a 2 state solution and we both believe Isreal has the right to exist and defend itself.

We obviously disagree about things like Isreal is committing genocide and the nuances around a century old ongoing conflict but in terms of solution we agree.

I agree with the 2 state solution and Israel's right to exist purely because a peaceful 1 state solution is impossible as is evacuating 10 million Israelis from the region. I also think that Israel has the right to exist on the caveat that they remove the law of return, the law was initially to aid Jews displaced from WWII, it is now used to colonise the land.

As for Israel's right to defend itself, my definition is very different. They should have defended themselves on 7 October and after that anything that wasn't an on the ground, hostage recovery operation (ie. All their blanked bombing of civilian areas and refugee camps) has been disproportionate.

 

[Saintjay]

Could someone please PM me when the back and forth bickering over whether genocide is a good thing or a bad thing is finished, so I can get back to following the thread?

Thanks in advance.

No idea, I'm busy on the Oasis forums moaning about dynamic ticket pricing. 1st world problems indeed.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Is anyone still on Twitter/X?

I really enjoy it for sport and random memes but in the last couple weeks it's gone from very intolerant and right wing to openly fascist. Multiple posts trying to portray the Nazis as the good side of WWII.

This is Elon's platform that Trump has very recently decided he should return to. Incredibly worrying.

 

[Becca]

Is anyone still on Twitter/X?

I really enjoy it for sport and random memes but in the last couple weeks it's gone from very intolerant and right wing to openly fascist. Multiple posts trying to portray the Nazis as the good side of WWII.

This is Elon's platform that Trump has very recently decided he should return to. Incredibly worrying.

Not on any of the socials anymore.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is anyone still on Twitter/X?

I really enjoy it for sport and random memes but in the last couple weeks it's gone from very intolerant and right wing to openly fascist. Multiple posts trying to portray the Nazis as the good side of WWII.

This is Elon's platform that Trump has very recently decided he should return to. Incredibly worrying.

Yeah, I still use it for sport and music but more and more right wing crap is seeping through onto my feed so is making me reconsider

Before i had it pretty well curated so I never really saw anything outside of what I wanted to, but I'm seeing the people straight up saying that the Nazis were the good guys in WW2 just out loud and proud on the timeline too - it's crazy
I've never interacted with anything political or any accounts like that so it's definitely being pushed by Twitter

It's frustrating because there's still a lot of good stuff on there - I'd have missed tons of gigs or new album releases etc. without it - but it's just harder and harder to justify the brain rot

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Is anyone still on Twitter/X?

Never was, never will be.

The occasional good stuff is massively outweighed by the dross and the dangerous.

Glad I grew up before social media was a thing you automatically hook into.

 

[Yulia]

I like some social media and have accounts in different social networks (too lazy to post and read them often, though), but I can't stand "twat-er" (as someone called it here), and could never understand an interest to this network. Really boring, those debiloid twitter "memes", same people posting same things, a very small amount of truly interesting and unusual thoughts. If I need an information - I'll find original sources for it, if I need just to relax and read something interesting/funny - I'll read books,novels online. Maybe I have a limited understanding of twitter because I don't use it...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah, I still use it for sport and music but more and more right wing crap is seeping through onto my feed so is making me reconsider

Before i had it pretty well curated so I never really saw anything outside of what I wanted to, but I'm seeing the people straight up saying that the Nazis were the good guys in WW2 just out loud and proud on the timeline too - it's crazy
I've never interacted with anything political or any accounts like that so it's definitely being pushed by Twitter

It's frustrating because there's still a lot of good stuff on there - I'd have missed tons of gigs or new album releases etc. without it - but it's just harder and harder to justify the brain rot

Same experience here. Any political post I've ever liked have been strongly criticising anti immigration and yet this is what I'm getting. Very close to deleting my accounts.

 

[Saintjay]

Twitter is great for sport and music information. Other than that i have zero-engagement on it. I don't post or reply on anything.

It's the one platform where it seems people can say and act however they please without any comeback.

How a majority seem to think they can treat people with zero respect or dignity on there is beyond me. It just seems the norm now.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Right-wing US influencers say they were victims of alleged Russian plot

Several commentators said that, if the allegations proved true, they were "deceived" by the Russian government front.

www.bbc.co.uk

Looks like once again the far right are more than willing to do the bidding of Moscow. The largest group of useful idiots the Kremlin has ever had access to. It's ironic how those who most loudly and frequently announce how they are the real patriots fighting for their country are the ones most often undermining it and doing the bidding of a hostile foreign power...

 

[McTallshort]

Right-wing US influencers say they were victims of alleged Russian plot

Several commentators said that, if the allegations proved true, they were "deceived" by the Russian government front.

www.bbc.co.uk

Looks like once again the far right are more than willing to do the bidding of Moscow. The largest group of useful idiots the Kremlin has ever had access to. It's ironic how those who most loudly and frequently announce how they are the real patriots fighting for their country are the ones most often undermining it and doing the bidding of a hostile foreign power...

 

[The Seeker]

Former Republican Vice President Dick Cheney says he'll vote for Harris

Former Vice President Dick Cheney, one of the most prominent Republicans in the last half-century, announced Friday will be crossing party lines this election and voting for Vice President Kamala Harris, contending former President Donald Trump "can never be trusted with power again." Cheney...

www.yahoo.com

 

[McTallshort]

Former Republican Vice President Dick Cheney says he'll vote for Harris

Former Vice President Dick Cheney, one of the most prominent Republicans in the last half-century, announced Friday will be crossing party lines this election and voting for Vice President Kamala Harris, contending former President Donald Trump "can never be trusted with power again." Cheney...

www.yahoo.com

Not sure that's a good thing for the Democrats

 

[Which Tyler]

I am.
As was Liz Cheney speaking at the DNC - it shows more moderate republicans that a vote for Harris can be considered safe.
I can't see them losing any votes for it, but they'll probably pick up a few from lifelong republican never-trumpers who would otherwise have stayed home.