A Political Thread pt. 2

[Ragey Erasmus]

Amazing that after 12 years of mismanagement, the Tories can stand in front of the British public and accuse Labour of not having a workable plan...

Given the last 12 years, at least one of the following must be true:

1. The Tories have no plan
2. The Tories have a plan but it was bad
3. The Tories had a plan but have been utterly incompetent at enacting it
4. The Tories had a plan and have executed it fine and this is what they wanted.

None of these scenarios give them much of a leg to stand on when pointing the finger at others.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Amazing that after 12 years of mismanagement, the Tories can stand in front of the British public and accuse Labour of not having a workable plan...

Given the last 12 years, at least one of the following must be true:

1. The Tories have no plan
2. The Tories have a plan but it was bad
3. The Tories had a plan but have been utterly incompetent at enacting it
4. The Tories had a plan and have executed it fine and this is what they wanted.

None of these scenarios give them much of a leg to stand on when pointing the finger at others.

 

[Reiser99]

Amazing that after 12 years of mismanagement, the Tories can stand in front of the British public and accuse Labour of not having a workable plan...

Given the last 12 years, at least one of the following must be true:

1. The Tories have no plan
2. The Tories have a plan but it was bad
3. The Tories had a plan but have been utterly incompetent at enacting it
4. The Tories had a plan and have executed it fine and this is what they wanted.

None of these scenarios give them much of a leg to stand on when pointing the finger at others.

Tbh that's just usual rhetoric. I find it more ridiculous when people say, well Labour would have been just as bad or, they are all just the same.

It's a ridiculous comment and for me it's quite a simple logical choice. One party might be ****. The other party is definitely ****. Even if you don't think Labour will be great surely you can't think the Conservatives are doing a good job unless you're one of the wealthy in this country. They have shat on everyone else.

 

[General Melchett]

Tbh that's just usual rhetoric. I find it more ridiculous when people say, well Labour would have been just as bad or, they are all just the same.

It's a ridiculous comment and for me it's quite a simple logical choice. One party might be ****. The other party is definitely ****. Even if you don't think Labour will be great surely you can't think the Conservatives are doing a good job unless you're one of the wealthy in this country. They have shat on everyone else.

TBH, it's pretty much how our flawed political system has operated for decades. A closed shop where power rotates between two main parties who try to re-brand and re-launch themselves every ten years or so. It reaches a point after 2-3 terms where the public take the view that it's worth taking a punt on the other lot because they can't be any worse than the current shower who have messed up so bad. We are approaching another baton change.

 

[ncurd]

TBH, it's pretty much how our flawed political system has operated for decades. A closed shop where power rotates between two main parties. It reaches a point after 2-3 terms where the public take the view that it's worth taking a punt on the other lot because they can't be any worse than the current lot who have messed up so bad. We are approaching another baton change.

I dunno you see graphs like below. I'm really unconvinced by the last lot ****** it up argument. And more people didn't realise how good they had it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Prince Harry details physical attack by brother William in new book

Exclusive: Harry writes in new autobiography Spare that William ‘knocked me to the floor’ during confrontation in London in 2019

www.theguardian.com

One book I definitely won't be buying.

 

[Reiser99]

One book I definitely won't be buying.

The only aspect I find interesting is the dynamic that Meghan and Harry seem to be going all out attack, whilst the palace continues it's usual tactic of being a black hole. It's rare these days to get such a one-sided view of an event.

Personally though I feel like Harry and Meghan are cashing in as much as possible before getting out. The interviews and books will probably set them up for life.

 

[Reiser99]

BTW, does one of us work for TLDR?

 

[General Melchett]

I dunno you see graphs like below. I'm really unconvinced by the last lot ****** it up argument. And more people didn't realise how good they had it.

I agree but still think the public felt a change was needed after 13 years of Labour (even though in hindsight things weren't that bad in 2010) and they ultimately went for the style of Cameron over the substance of Brown and got it wrong.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree but still think the public felt a change was needed after 13 years of Labour (even though in hindsight things weren't that bad in 2010) and they ultimately went for the style of Cameron over the substance of Brown and got it wrong.

And here we are, years down the line with Brexit and the Tory leadership musical chairs, scandals, corruption, lies and somehow a segment of this country still look at them and go "yep, that's who I want."

I've asked it before and I'll say it again, what is the limit for some people that will make them abandon the Tories? I know someone who wheels out the "it would be worse under Labour" despite the Labour years being clearly better than the Tory mess either side of it. There is no limit to how bad the Tories could get and, every time I've asked about issues, they bring up culture war crap. For all the claims that it's the left that engage in culture wars, it's actually the right who consistently put it as top of the agenda. They would rather see the economy tanking than "wokism" (which is conveniently left undefined). Friends I've spoken to on the left talk about security, integrity, jobs, bills, Brexit etc whilst those I'm friends with on the right talk about wokism, persecution of the right wing, "free speech", Corbyn, 60's and 70's socialism and scroungers. I'm finding right wing talking points are becoming more and more detached from actual issues of the day as there is no defence for how much they have ****** up so they look to deflect to non-issues and make them issues.

 

[ncurd]

BTW, does one of us work for TLDR?

Pretty clear analysis so definitely not me.

I'd like to see if as people get older they get more socially conservative as well as fiscally. Or is that also a problem for the Conservative party in general it does always feel apart from a few their parliamentary party (who are younger) are at loggerhead with their voters on this point. Many of their voters still oppose same-sex marriage but obviously the people in the commons aren't really that opposed they even bought the legislation in.

I'd be interested in polling data on greatest generation as well shame it doesn't really exist, because they also lied through even more radical times.

I definitely feel more with my generation than older ones there a stronger feel for collective responsibility.

As also noted my experience with Gen X's is more aligned with Millienials but that might just be I'm friends with younger Gen X's rather than the older ones and these things aren't hardened line.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd like to see if as people get older they get more socially conservative as well as fiscally.

At a guess, I'd say that society moves more socially liberal faster than most individuals do - especially as I think most people don't really revisit the opinions they've already formed much after their mid-20s.
Someone who was socially liberal in the 80s, and never changed their stance, would have been neutral in the 90s and slightly conservative in the 00s and lost at sea as to what's even being discussed anymore in the 10s. But they've probably become more liberal, just more slowly, so they still drift towards social conservativism; but more because the social Overton Window has drifted leftwards.

 

[ncurd]

At a guess, I'd say that society moves more socially liberal faster than most individuals do - especially as I think most people don't really revisit the opinions they've already formed much after their mid-20s.
Someone who was socially liberal in the 80s, and never changed their stance, would have been neutral in the 90s and slightly conservative in the 00s and lost at sea as to what's even being discussed anymore in the 10s. But they've probably become more liberal, just more slowly, so they still drift towards social conservativism; but more because the social Overton Window has drifted leftwards.

Those would be my assumptions on that too, I'd reallt like to see someone do some real analysis on Overton Windows one day. Sadly its mainly used a left-wing buzz word.

 

[Reiser99]

At a guess, I'd say that society moves more socially liberal faster than most individuals do - especially as I think most people don't really revisit the opinions they've already formed much after their mid-20s.
Someone who was socially liberal in the 80s, and never changed their stance, would have been neutral in the 90s and slightly conservative in the 00s and lost at sea as to what's even being discussed anymore in the 10s. But they've probably become more liberal, just more slowly, so they still drift towards social conservativism; but more because the social Overton Window has drifted leftwards.

I think this is what they were referring to when they said the status quo. When you're young you look to change society and in general it slowly changes to a point where you feel it now aligns with you. But then it continues to change and goes past where you are.

Having said that I do also believe that younger generations are more aware of global issues and that just looking after number one could well no longer be a viable strategy to surviving. Especially in terms of issues like the environment just worrying about yourself will not be enough to make a difference.

 

[Which Tyler]

Having said that I do also believe that younger generations are more aware of global issues and that just looking after number one could well no longer be a viable strategy to surviving. Especially in terms of issues like the environment just worrying about yourself will not be enough to make a difference.

That's absolutely valid, and something that Millennials would have been the first to really encounter with the explosion of the internet (much as I usually hate these generational stereotypings, and the timing of the demarkations)

 

[Saintjay]

I do wonder if Corbyn era Labour has to take some responsibility for the mess we are in. The Labour NEC and membership put Labour in a position that made it unelectable to the average person. Labour went from being the party of the working classes. To mainly being supported in larger cities and university towns. Losing Scotland is also a massive problem that needs to be addressed by Labour. What did Labour do to cause such a massive defeat at the last GE. Also what drives people to vote Conservative governments into power considerably more than they do Labour. As much as people like to think they are community minded, think of others. I can't help people feel at the ballot box they vote on who they feel will benefit themselves and family first, community, others second. Most people aren't left or right in my view but probably sit somewhere in the middle.
To get back lost votes Labour needs to win Brexit voting historically working class seats. Whilst trying to retain the Brexit voting student towns and larger cities.

A number of people I know who voted Brexit are are sick of being labelled racists, thick, stupid. That they should now apologise because clearly they were wrong etc. They might have been sold a lie but that's not there fault and they certainly have nothing to apologise for. The right thing to do is identify the concerns, issues and worries that caused them to vote for Brexit. If you acknowledge that and at least try to address those without judgement and name calling on both sides you might actually get somewhere. I think or hope this is what Starmer is trying to do.

 

[The Seeker]

 

[The Seeker]

 

[ncurd]

A number of people I know who voted Brexit are are sick of being labelled racists, thick, stupid. That they should now apologise because clearly they were wrong etc. They might have been sold a lie but that's not there fault and they certainly have nothing to apologise for.

Sorry can't disagree more, being sold a lie make you thick and they need to own up to their stupidity, I'm tired being told mollycoddle people for throwing this country to the pits.

Don't call em thick because they were too stupid to know they were being lied to, is a terrible argument. Especially when they won't own their ******* ****.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

User Clip: Jared Huffman pulls a Leroy Jenkins

Hakeeeeeem JEFFRIES!!!

www.c-span.org

Bit of a laugh in this ridiculous process