[2024 Six Nations] Ireland vs Scotland - 16/03/24

[munstermuffin]

He is a capable coach. Glasgow were a mess when he took over and he rebuilt the team before they wiped the floor with Munster to win the Pro12.

He's just not an elite international head coach like peak Gatland, Schmidt, Rassie or Faz.

But I'd argue on the opposite he has got a bounce off his teams when he goes in for first season or 2 but after that it goes stale fast and progress stalls or regresses.
They beat us in Pro12 final but we were in a poor spot and still the only real difference was the 2 Fijian lads.
I think with this Scottish team they have regressed the last 12 months and it is masked a bit by other teams being poor but don't thing Gregory can bring Scptland beyond where they are now.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're correct, that subconcussive contacts are also an issue.
But they're subconcussive, and outside the framework for concussion.

You can lose consciousness without any head contact at all. You can be concussed without any head contact at all.
To the best of my knowledge, there is not test, nor any protocol, for players who've suffered subconcussive brain injuries - which would be literally all of them, almost certainly every starter in every single game.

The thing ye are all missing. Calvin didn't loose consciousness. He was groggy and rattled. He also passed his HIA but was not in right senses. He was back training Tuesday fully and waltzed past all the independently done tests.
If it is a concussion like Frawley for example there is a way to be back within 7 days if no history of concussion but nearly all nations enforce the 12 day period

 

[Reiser99]

You're correct, that subconcussive contacts are also an issue.
But they're subconcussive, and outside the framework for concussion.

You can lose consciousness without any head contact at all. You can be concussed without any head contact at all.
To the best of my knowledge, there is not test, nor any protocol, for players who've suffered subconcussive brain injuries - which would be literally all of them, almost certainly every starter in every single game.

Also I maybe wrong, but there currently isn't a way to detect CTE in living people and it's only confirmed after death.

 

[munstermuffin]

Also I maybe wrong, but there currently isn't a way to detect CTE in living people and it's only confirmed after death.

Correct. A few symptoms may be telling signs but no definitive way as the brain has to effectively have a biopsy to confirm

 

[General Melchett]

But I'd argue on the opposite he has got a bounce off his teams when he goes in for first season or 2 but after that it goes stale fast and progress stalls or regresses.
They beat us in Pro12 final but we were in a poor spot and still the only real difference was the 2 Fijian lads.
I think with this Scottish team they have regressed the last 12 months and it is masked a bit by other teams being poor but don't thing Gregory can bring Scptland beyond where they are now.

Simply not the case with Glasgow. He left them in great shape (compared to what he started with) and Dave Rennie inherited a very good squad/set-up. There was no stagnation or regression there.

 

[g6mcg]

And with Scotland, who knows? Tough counterfactual to judge. It is the most talented squad in my lifetime but it's also substantially worse than France and Ireland so ***les aren't really on the cards. Probably worse than England's too and he has a very good record vs them.

He's not an elite coach but hard to say he's not achieved par. Can believe another coach wins a ***le (not slam) in the last cycle but I don't think it's a glaring coaching failure to not have won one.

 

[munstermuffin]

Simply not the case with Glasgow. He left them in great shape (compared to what he started with) and Dave Rennie inherited a very good squad/set-up. There was no stagnation or regression there.

Not arguing he left them in bad way just bot a coach that gets them that final bit. Like to the extent Glasgow were never pushing the business end of Europe and Scotland I just feel aren't able to go that bit more.
For example Scotland this year could finish either very good and be 2nd or go as low as 4th which would indicate a poor performance. Not judging on ***les but this year a poor French and English team could finish ahead.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Isn't this like Wales with Gatland? Wales won a lot under him and then it built this belief that Wales could do better way a different coach only to realise Gatland was pretty much getting the most out of the players. Could it be Scotland don't actually have much more room for improvement but predominantly their record against England makes them think they are better than they are?

This is the best Scottish team I've seen in my lifetime watching rugby and I'm just not convinced there is really much extra that can be got out of them.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah I reckon he's getting a lot out of them if not maximising their potential. My only criticism is in his biggest games internationally, Scotland haven't fired a shot. Feels like Ireland before Schmidt but the level of competition is far higher these days so triple crowns and a slam / championship haven't come.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Townsend's also been in post for nearly 7 years so there's probably an element of the players having already heard all he has to say.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Townsend's also been in post for nearly 7 years so there's probably an element of the players having already heard all he has to say.

Except when wheeling out the Braveheart act when playing England it seems.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Except when wheeling out the Braveheart act when playing England it seems.

VdM, Steyn, Schoeman and Dempsey can barely keep the tears from their eyes when he starts that one while Skinner, Redpath, White and Hepburn all try to forget their days wearing the rose.

 

[General Melchett]

This is the best Scottish team I've seen in my lifetime watching rugby and I'm just not convinced there is really much extra that can be got out of them.

I would go along with this. Vern Cotter benefited massively from the work Townsend did at Glasgow. Townsend left Glasgow on a high and the Scotland job was the next natural step.

Scotland don't have a god given right to win any ***les and so perhaps third/second (on a good year) is their level. Let's face it - Leinster have been carrying Ireland since Schmidt arrived and this has made it exceptionally difficult for the other home nations to get a sniff. I would also argue that France (with their golden generation) would have won more 6N ***les if it wasn't for Leinster. I personally think we should have won the championship the year Pivac won it with Wales (Fagerson's red card probably cost us but it's all ifs and buts). They didn't seize the chance and Wales did. No complaints.

Townsend's record against England has been excellent. His performances against Ireland have been poor and he hasn't delivered in big games at the last two RWCs. I stand by what I said earlier - he's a very capable coach but he's not an elite international head coach.

 

[retired9]

I would go along with this. Vern Cotter benefited massively from the work Townsend did at Glasgow. Townsend left Glasgow on a high and the Scotland job was the next natural step.

Scotland don't have a god given right to win any ***les and so perhaps third/second (on a good year) is their level. Let's face it - Leinster have been carrying Ireland since Schmidt arrived and this has made it exceptionally difficult for the other home nations to get a sniff. I personally think we should have won the championship the year Pivac won it with Wales (Fagerson's red card probably cost us but it's all ifs and buts). They didn't seize the chance and Wales did.

Townsend's record against England has been excellent. His performances against Ireland have been poor and he hasn't delivered in big games at the last two RWCs. I stand by what I said earlier - he's a very capable coach but he's not an elite international head coach.

Pretty much in agreement with this, it's crazy how one non-try try against France and a very robust Italy have prevented a solid shout at 2nd place for Scotland this year.

Allowing for the population and size of the game up here (comparing to Wales for an example), yes we have some imported players (not having that debate its nothing new) one could still argue we hit above our weight most of the time - but where similar sized nations like Ireland and Wales seem to find another level internationally Scotland have struggled. We can produce home grown talent like the Fagersons, Russell, Hogg, Graeme, the Gray brothers and more, some of which are very decent international rugby players.

Maybe what we are now seeing is a team who mostly have the talent, the skills and the capability to win big, they just don't have the killer mindset (which in fairness only Wales, Ireland in the Farrell era and England in early Eddie years/Woodward days have shown consistently in the 6N) which other teams have managed. I have to agree with the thinking that not enough of them are in championship winning clubs, top end of the prem etc etc to have the experience to pull together on these big days.

 

[General Melchett]

A LBP wound be decent for Scotland but I'm expecting something like 42-15 to Ireland

 

[Which Tyler]

A LBP wound be decent for Scotland but I'm expecting something like 42-15 to Ireland

As a chiropractor - Low Back Pain wounds are never a decent thing (except in as far as they pay my mortgage)
Sorry not sorry.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Isn't this like Wales with Gatland? Wales won a lot under him and then it built this belief that Wales could do better way a different coach only to realise Gatland was pretty much getting the most out of the players. Could it be Scotland don't actually have much more room for improvement but predominantly their record against England makes them think they are better than they are?

This is the best Scottish team I've seen in my lifetime watching rugby and I'm just not convinced there is really much extra that can be got out of them.

I have a very different view of Gatland. I think the first time he coached Wales he had a golden generation of welsh players and he actually underachieved with them. That team could have got to a world cup final.

I think with the Lions tours Gatland was par or under achieved. He very narrowly beat a poor Australia side and could have lost that series had one kick gone over, he drew against New Zealand which was ok but massively helped by Sonny Bill getting himself sent off, and he lost against south africa. He has had fantastic players with the Lions and I wouldn't say he has got the most out of any of them.

Now Gatland is coaching poor welsh players its showing what a mediocre coach he is.

 

[BrokenWing]

VdM, Steyn, Schoeman and Dempsey can barely keep the tears from their eyes when he starts that one while Skinner, Redpath, White and Hepburn all try to forget their days wearing the rose.

Rather fitting that the speech should be given the big screen treatment by an Australian.

 

[munstermuffin]

Peter O Mahony might announce retirement today.

 

[Groundhog]

Peter O Mahony might announce retirement today.

Jaysus really?