[2024 Six Nations] England vs Wales - 10/02/24

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pretty bleak how we're in the richest vein of wingers we've had in two decades but we still pick a utility back whose worst position is wing and probably won't make the next RWC


Is he though? He's got a whole load of "worst ever" records in his pocket already

Eddie set all of it in motion. There's no quick fixes at this level anymore, took Andy Farrell over a year to get a good performance in far better conditions to rebuild and taking over a better team. England aren't very strong at the moment and probably have the 4th strongest squad in the competition and 6th strongest in the world. Fiji warm up game aside he's winning the games he's expected to win.

I think you'll see England improve considerably in the next 12-18 months. Getting at the level of the quarter finalists from the serious side of the World Cup draw last year is another question but not one that needs to be addressed by England right now.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

t i tanic

That's a big play, really shows experience and calmness.

 

[Which Tyler]

Pretty bleak how we're in the richest vein of wingers we've had in two decades .

Are we?
I don't recall the Watson and May partnership being quite as old as that, I must admit. They also had plenty of good back-up, even if we chose to use Daly and Nowell instead of the likes of Thorley (though I'm one of the ones who thinks Daly's best international performances have come on the wing - where he briefly showed world-class potential, before being ruined at the back)

 

[Protalus rampart]

I almost feel this all but ends all expectation that Borthwick will look to change out the old guard in 2024. If he can't try some new talent against Italy or a developing Wales I feel he's not going to do it for the remainder of the six nations against the stronger sides, against NZ in the Summer, or in England's (pretty tricky) autumn run…

That is unless availability forces him to.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are we?

I think so, definitely

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm happy the team is kept the same. There are a couple of changes I'd make but I think giving the team more time to gel is only a positive thing.

Wonder if F Smith and co will get some food minutes or not, this might be a really tight game.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm telling you it's coming, Rowlands not being in camp ruined the plan, so he went for Botham.

You were right, it was clearly in their thoughts but thankfully common sense prevailed.

"We had a discussion about playing him at six, with Will Rowlands coming in. But that's not what we're about, doing a one-off thing.

"Wales did it once with Alun Wyn playing six and England put something like 60 on them. There was a discussion about what we did, do we leave Alex Mann on the bench and take the pressure off. But that's not where we are, so we fast-track him and not chop and change too much.

 

[Welsh Exile]

For the life of me I still can't understand what Gatland sees in Beard. Teddy Williams should be either starting or on the bench given that he did more in 20min. v Scotland than Beard has done in his last 20+ caps.

Beard was earmarked as a future captain, yet Gatland has picked 3 rookies (Morgan, Lake, and Jenkins) as his long term captains ahead of him. He calls the lineout, which continues to malfunction regularly. And he's passive, both in his carrying and his tackling.

He get's his long limbs through a few mauls, but christ, if that's enough to keep getting picked, then deary me!

I feel that unless he has a stormer v England, and with Rowlands (probably Wales best player in recent seasons) waiting on the bench, his days might finally be numbered as a starter at least. I just hope that Gats sees fit to have a more impactful player on the bench when that happens. So just about any other lock in Wales...

Gatland on Beard. Jesus.

"He's a lot more skilful than people think. He's got good hands. He's an intelligent rugby player. He's important in his lineout calling. He's always open to suggestions and willing to learn. I've heard the criticism and it surprises me. People can come and watch him train."

 

[dirty harry]

You were right, it was clearly in their thoughts but thankfully common sense prevailed.

"We had a discussion about playing him at six, with Will Rowlands coming in. But that's not what we're about, doing a one-off thing.

"Wales did it once with Alun Wyn playing six and England put something like 60 on them. There was a discussion about what we did, do we leave Alex Mann on the bench and take the pressure off. But that's not where we are, so we fast-track him and not chop and change too much.

That was a different time. Jenkins is far more athletic than Jones was. I still think itll happen...

 

[IT157]

For the life of me I still can't understand what Gatland sees in Beard. Teddy Williams should be either starting or on the bench given that he did more in 20min. v Scotland than Beard has done in his last 20+ caps.

Beard was earmarked as a future captain, yet Gatland has picked 3 rookies (Morgan, Lake, and Jenkins) as his long term captains ahead of him. He calls the lineout, which continues to malfunction regularly. And he's passive, both in his carrying and his tackling.

He get's his long limbs through a few mauls, but christ, if that's enough to keep getting picked, then deary me!

I feel that unless he has a stormer v England, and with Rowlands (probably Wales best player in recent seasons) waiting on the bench, his days might finally be numbered as a starter at least. I just hope that Gats sees fit to have a more impactful player on the bench when that happens. So just about any other lock in Wales...

Because he's one of the best players at disrupting mauls? So very handy in defense.

 

[Welsh Exile]

That was a different time. Jenkins is far more athletic than Jones was. I still think itll happen...

Lets hope not as it would massively weaken us just in keeping beard on the pitch and that's before you go into him playing a position he's never played in before.

 

[IT157]

Gatland on Beard. Jesus.

"He's a lot more skilful than people think. He's got good hands. He's an intelligent rugby player. He's important in his lineout calling. He's always open to suggestions and willing to learn. I've heard the criticism and it surprises me. People can come and watch him train."

Think Gatland got it spot on tbh.

I always though Beard was a solid operator and player. Surprised when I saw so much backlash about him on these boards.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm happy the team is kept the same. There are a couple of changes I'd make but I think giving the team more time to gel is only a positive thing.

Wonder if F Smith and co will get some food minutes or not, this might be a really tight game.

I would hope subs get more game time. Especially Smith. However, he also needs to be trusted to run the game himself. Last week it felt like he had orders not to play or take risks.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I almost feel this all but ends all expectation that Borthwick will look to change out the old guard in 2024. If he can't try some new talent against Italy or a developing Wales I feel he's not going to do it for the remainder of the six nations against the stronger sides, against NZ in the Summer, or in England's (pretty tricky) autumn run…

That is unless availability forces him to.

Erm…..

Roots, Dingwall, Freeman, Dan, Coles, CCS, F Smith and IFW are all in international nappies.

Chessum and Mitchell have only just graduated to shorts.

Steward, Stewart, Underhill and Earl are only about year 9.

There's been plenty of change. I might not particularly like the look of some of the team but he's right to stick with it this week.

That said I'd prefer Ford on the bench and feel a bit sorry for Obano.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Think Gatland got it spot on tbh.

I always though Beard was a solid operator and player. Surprised when I saw so much backlash about him on these boards.

Beard would be a great 4th choice lock, someone to call on when we've got a bit of an injury crisis in the row. I don't doubt his commitment or his attitude and he seems like a good bloke and top pro but that, and maul defence, is where my praise ends but I'm just a nobody who doesn't see him train but seeing as Gats has invited me along to training to watch him I can make a more informed decision. Il get back to you.

 

[dirty harry]

Lets hope not as it would massively weaken us just in keeping beard on the pitch and that's before you go into him playing a position he's never played in before.

Jenkins played back row most of his life, I think he only converted a few years ago, played, granted hes 21 so...

 

[dirty harry]

Beard would be a great 4th choice lock, someone to call on when we've got a bit of an injury crisis in the row. I don't doubt his commitment or his attitude and he seems like a good bloke and top pro but that, and maul defence, is where my praise ends but I'm just a nobody who doesn't see him train but seeing as Gats has invited me along to training to watch him I can make a more informed decision. Il get back to you.

Ye Beard is certainly under pressure, hes not rubbish by any means, hes so big and strong I would suggest the scrum, maul D and in the tight would be a big loss without him.

He isnt mobile at all, and he seems slow into the air at the lineout these days. However our lineout is not the problem of one man, it's a comedy of errors at times. It doesnt help having inexperienced lifters.

People seem to under play the role props play in the lineout, but timing is literally everything (unless you have a freak like Itoje who can leap to co test without a lift). Domachowski and Brown werent great, and now we start with 2 different props.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Jenkins played back row most of his life, I think he only converted a few years ago, played, granted hes 21 so...

I didn't know Jenkins played his youth rugby at 6/back row, that is slightly better but meh, I'm not putting much stock in that in the same way I won't put much stock in Ioan Lloyd playing at 10 as a kid. He's still a novice 10 as all his time playing big boy rugby has been practically everywhere in the backline instead of 10. Same with Jenkins, even all the under 20 games I saw had Jenkins in the 2nd row.

Still, I could grant you all that and my main concern about playing Jenkins at 6 is we're then having to start Beard. But then I'm a big believer in we should be developing Tshiunza as a 2nd row not a 6 and have him and Jenkins as our main 2nd row options moving forward but I'm in a minority in that but to me it's common sense, we're so well stocked in back row options in Wales and even looking at young players coming through we look fine there but in the 2nd row it's a totally different story and understandably so being a small country, being able to produce the specimens you need to be a top international locks is not something we produce loads of, so why when you have some genuinely exciting, young prospects and absolutely beasts (Jenkins and Tshiunza still have some filling out to do) like you do in Jenkins and Tshiunza why would you contemplate playing them in the back row? I know why Gatland does and its mainly because he's obsessed with a line out option at 6 and generally having a big lump there but that would be one of many things I disagree with him on. I would say, though, with Reffell, as good as he is, he's not a good lineout option at 7 so if you're starting him a good line out option at 6 is important.

 

[Reiser99]

Ye Beard is certainly under pressure, hes not rubbish by any means, hes so big and strong I would suggest the scrum, maul D and in the tight would be a big loss without him.

He isnt mobile at all, and he seems slow into the air at the lineout these days. However our lineout is not the problem of one man, it's a comedy of errors at times. It doesnt help having inexperienced lifters.

People seem to under play the role props play in the lineout, but timing is literally everything (unless you have a freak like Itoje who can leap to co test without a lift). Domachowski and Brown werent great, and now we start with 2 different props.

He plays for Wales. He's rubbish by definition.

 

[Welsh Exile]

He plays for Wales. He's rubbish by definition.