[2024 Six Nations] England vs Wales - 10/02/24

[Reiser99]

More cohesion in attack and, especially, in defence.

New players, new game plan, complicated new defence patterns - I want all of those things to be a bit more comfortable.

AKA, progress.

For me I would just like to see the player look like they're on the same page. I get that getting a system to work takes time, but at least look like you all know what you're supposed to be doing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think it'll look very similar to the Italy game tbh,
Setpiece, field position and pressure: England
Attack/excitement/tries: Wales

Close England win with Wales outscoring England

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Tbf it's not his fault. You both speak English with a silly accent that makes you barely intelligible.

Bros never been to south Dublin. We might be insufferable but only because we're clear.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think it'll look very similar to the Italy game tbh,
Setpiece, field position and pressure: England
Attack/excitement/tries: Wales

Close England win with Wales outscoring England

It's going to be a dog **** game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's going to be a dog **** game.

Almost definitely, but Wales are nearly always good for an out-of-nowhere try or two vs England

 

[Welsh Exile]

Almost definitely, but Wales are nearly always good for an out-of-nowhere try or two vs England

Here's hoping for a 10 yard knock on not to be given in the build up to a Welsh try like in Cardiff a couple of years back as well.

 

[TommiG88]

Here's hoping for a 10 yard knock on not to be given in the build up to a Welsh try like in Cardiff a couple of years back as well.

Don't forget the quick tap penalty

 

[Reiser99]

Don't forget the quick tap penalty

If we include against other teams, taking a quick lineout after the ball goes into the crowd.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Close England win with Wales outscoring England

Hope you mean Wales scoring more tries otherwise I'm a bit confused.

TBH the win is more important than anything. Yes of course we want an uptick in performance but lose this and its odds on we end up with just one win and a narrow one at that against the perennial wooden spoonists. By any measure that's not progress and a loss against a moderate Wal will dent what little confidence we have and more than likely encourage more conservatism.

Let's do whatever it takes to win this and worry more about performance in the coming games where the expectations of winning are much lower.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hope you mean Wales scoring more tries

Yup, like the Italy game - and their game vs Scotland as well, thinking about it

 

[dirty harry]

I didn't know Jenkins played his youth rugby at 6/back row, that is slightly better but meh, I'm not putting much stock in that in the same way I won't put much stock in Ioan Lloyd playing at 10 as a kid. He's still a novice 10 as all his time playing big boy rugby has been practically everywhere in the backline instead of 10. Same with Jenkins, even all the under 20 games I saw had Jenkins in the 2nd row.

Still, I could grant you all that and my main concern about playing Jenkins at 6 is we're then having to start Beard. But then I'm a big believer in we should be developing Tshiunza as a 2nd row not a 6 and have him and Jenkins as our main 2nd row options moving forward but I'm in a minority in that but to me it's common sense, we're so well stocked in back row options in Wales and even looking at young players coming through we look fine there but in the 2nd row it's a totally different story and understandably so being a small country, being able to produce the specimens you need to be a top international locks is not something we produce loads of, so why when you have some genuinely exciting, young prospects and absolutely beasts (Jenkins and Tshiunza still have some filling out to do) like you do in Jenkins and Tshiunza why would you contemplate playing them in the back row? I know why Gatland does and its mainly because he's obsessed with a line out option at 6 and generally having a big lump there but that would be one of many things I disagree with him on. I would say, though, with Reffell, as good as he is, he's not a good lineout option at 7 so if you're starting him a good line out option at 6 is important.

I might just agree Tshiunza is a lock option, having met him in Nice during the RWC though he isnt that big. I'm 6'5 and hes about my height.

We have a host of young locks around currently, Teddy William's, Jenkins, Fender, Carter... all are probably taller than Tshiunza, and I'd argue all but Fender are better lock options ahead of him (for now).

Tshiunza is very mobile, why have him compete with 4/5 good options, when we can risk developing him into a ball carrying back row.

People keep saying we are blessed with back rows, I think we are as weak as we have been in ages. Reffell is hardly world class, Wainwright is a good player, but 8 he is not anywhere near as effective, Basham isnt going to be world beating. Infact only Jac Morgan has shown potential to be top class, everyone behind himself has pretty hefty flaws.

I say take the risk with Tshiunza!

 

[dirty harry]

Don't trigger @dirty harry he has an all seeing eye and an innate understanding of the game the rest of us can only dream of having.

It's nice of you to admit...

 

[Welsh Exile]

I might just agree Tshiunza is a lock option, having met him in Nice during the RWC though he isnt that big. I'm 6'5 and hes about my height.

We have a host of young locks around currently, Teddy William's, Jenkins, Fender, Carter... all are probably taller than Tshiunza, and I'd argue all but Fender are better lock options ahead of him (for now).

Tshiunza is very mobile, why have him compete with 4/5 good options, when we can risk developing him into a ball carrying back row.

People keep saying we are blessed with back rows, I think we are as weak as we have been in ages. Reffell is hardly world class, Wainwright is a good player, but 8 he is not anywhere near as effective, Basham isnt going to be world beating. Infact only Jac Morgan has shown potential to be top class, everyone behind himself has pretty hefty flaws.

I say take the risk with Tshiunza!

Don't get me wrong, the most important thing is we play Tshiunza so I'm happy enough he's at least in Gatlands plans even if it is at 6 which I accept is the weakest of the back row positions. I actually like Rhys Davies more than any of those you mentioned. Fender does look good but he's played 5 mins of rugby so need to assess after this year. Teddy Williams is coming along but meh and Carter, for me, really hasn't kicked on and I don't know what he offers really. He's a decent enough player and he's still young but was hoping more from him a couple of years ago.

 

[Saintjay]

I'm interested to understand what peoples (English fans not the WUM welsh ones who can't even read) opinions on what is expected from England for this game?

If we lose to wales, who have a lot less players, less experience and the same amount of time with their new coach, does that just mean that SB is a poor coach?

We nearly lost to Italy who have a new coach while using the excuse that we also have a new coach.

If we win, are we expecting a massive victory, would we be happy with a 3 point victory?

What does good look like compared to getting a below expectations result?

Better at the break down. Reffell will be a pain all day long. I believe we had the quickest ruck speed so need to keep that up. A better showing from the centres and better gain line sucess would be good. I'll settle for just winning this one.

Stat of the day, according to the beeb, Wales have managed one try in the first half at Twickenham since the 6 nations started. Fully expect recording breaking Borth to improve on that.

Adams to be a annoying pain as per, i am surprised he wasn't benched

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The 2 biggest areas of improvement I want to see are in defence
1) I will really lose my **** if we once again leave huge gaps on the outside and let the Welsh breeze through because the defence can't be bothered to drift across and cover it. Leaving a gap on the wings is fine but the defence MUST ******* drift across when the ball starts going that way. If the players simply aren't going to put the effort in to doing that, they either need to be dropped or the system needs changing.

2) We also need to stop the situation where a player can run at a shoulder and neither player seems to bother making a tackle, like they each think it's for the other guy to do. You can't spend all your time worrying about covering off the offload if you aren't making an effort to tackle the guy in the first place.

To a lesser degree I want us to stop the bullshit of under-resourcing rucks, it doesn't matter how nicely spread out in pods your players are if the ball gets stuck at the bottom and you end up just doing a 1 out pass anyway. Lastly, it's so annoying seeing a player make a break and nobody else can be arsed to move at anything below a slow jog to support them, get your ******* arse in gear and get on their shoulder.

Fundamentally a lot of it comes across as the players being lazy and, when given the option between putting in extra effort to assist the team or trudging along to the next pre-planned move, they nearly always opt for the latter. We are probably one of the worst teams in the world for refusing to take advantage of a situation if it means putting in a little more effort or deviating slightly from the norm.

Just clean up the basics, put in a solid defensive shift and show control in attack and that will be just fine for now.

 

[ageingback23]

Weather tomorrow looks like it might be ok so we half a chance of the ball moving through the hands, rather than an up the jumper game. Assuming of course England bother to use the talent in the back line for a change. As for what I'd like to see from the performance? Well I'd like to see England win (the Welsh are insufferable when they beat us), but I won't feel good about a 1 point, last gasp penalty situation with no tries to speak of. I'd like to see our defence dramatically improve, and the lads playing what's in front of them in attack, rather than some starchy "system" all the time. That would feel like progress. But would I rather see progress over a win? Probably not..

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

More I think about this game the most I expect to win. All the excuses SB are the same Wales have.

So really it's players and coaches, wales have some really really poor depth in their squad and we have a lot of very skillful ones. So it's just coach A vs coach B.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm interested to understand what peoples (English fans not the WUM welsh ones who can't even read) opinions on what is expected from England for this game?

If we lose to wales, who have a lot less players, less experience and the same amount of time with their new coach, does that just mean that SB is a poor coach?

We nearly lost to Italy who have a new coach while using the excuse that we also have a new coach.

If we win, are we expecting a massive victory, would we be happy with a 3 point victory?

What does good look like compared to getting a below expectations result?

1. England and Wales situations are not the same, except for the timeline of their coaches they are in very different situations.

2. England have to win of course, but they should be looking for a double figure win against such a young inexperienced team. Anything short of 12 points would be a pretty hefty failure on Englands part.

3. No, no England didnt just nearly lose to Italy lol. They are having defence teething issues, but were in control of that game. They should have closed it out better, but a last ditch try doesnt detract that they had control and Italy never looked like winning after the 20th min or so.

I think England win by 15+, winning by 10 wouldnt be enough, winning by less than 5 really bad, and losing this game puts SB in a world of pain IMHO.

 

[dirty harry]

Don't get me wrong, the most important thing is we play Tshiunza so I'm happy enough he's at least in Gatlands plans even if it is at 6 which I accept is the weakest of the back row positions. I actually like Rhys Davies more than any of those you mentioned. Fender does look good but he's played 5 mins of rugby so need to assess after this year. Teddy Williams is coming along but meh and Carter, for me, really hasn't kicked on and I don't know what he offers really. He's a decent enough player and he's still young but was hoping more from him a couple of years ago.

Ye I get it, but we have a tendency in Wales to right off Dragons players when they dont explode onto the scene.

Carter is only just 23, hes had a few big injuries recently, 4 and 6 months out, which has hampered his development, but he is talented. He wont be a Seb Davies, more of an Andrew Coombes IMO lol you could make the same argument about Tshiunza, raw talent, but flawed and hasnt really kicked on, hes 22 now, and I suspect his performances for Wales wouldnt be much improved from his debut.

Fenders exciting because we dont breed many 6'8+ players who can move like him.

I do like, that we, for the first time in a while have some talent coming through at 8. It's been decades of Falatau, and make shift Moriarty, Wainright, Popham, Powell etc... I dont think we have had a rounded 8 option outside Falatau since Ryan Jones. Morse, Tshiunza, Martin, all look like they could play there.

 

[HamJan]

He's been pretty respectful. These are his comments from today, hardly "grim"

Does the presence of Immanuel Feyi-Waboso add extra spice to this one?

"No, it doesn't add any extra spice. He has made his decision to play for England. We haven't spoken about it. None of our tactics have mentioned his name or anything. There are a lot of players from both countries who are dual-qualified. Like I said, good luck to him. I hope things go well for him"

Selective memory methinks. Rewind a couple weeks and recall Gatland's glee when recounting Neil Jenkins reaction to IFW selecting England over Wales. He knows exactly what he's doing and it surprises me how sensitive WG is when receiving his own criticism.