[2023 Six Nations] England v France 11 March 2023. Kickoff 16:45

[Derpus]

Jones should never have been fired. Yeah, he was outspoken and prickly, but I had far more faith in him than I do with Borthwick. England are lucky their group isn't that difficult this coming world cup. Can actually see Australia knocking us out lol.

Australia have fallen a few points short in a couple of big games and their overall win record doesnt really reflect this view but i genuinely think we are better than England at the moment as well as having more talent coming through.

Whatever happened to Ford by the way?

 

[Geordie]

First Six Nations campaign where England have lost two home matches.

They didn't lose today they were humiliated...at home by one of our arch enemies...and we'll never erase that one. Worse than the 70 odd defeat to Australia...

 

[Geordie]

Australia have fallen a few points short in a couple of big games and their overall win record doesnt really reflect this view but i genuinely think we are better than England at the moment as well as having more talent coming through.

Whatever happened to Ford by the way?

That was a bad result but France today would have spanked most teams...they were just sublime.

England have some real good talent coming through...and crucially some real size and power...something we're lacking. I just Hope they transition through strongly from the U20s...

 

[TobesHodges]

Lol'ing at the Farrell Haters, they've been waiting 2 years for Smith to start with a proper 12 and 13 outside him and he plays like that

Bring old Faz back in

 

[corny]

That was a bad result but France today would have spanked most teams...they were just sublime.

England have some real good talent coming through...and crucially some real size and power...something we're lacking. I just Hope they transition through strongly from the U20s...

England need to get them through quickly then. There were some lads stealing the appearance fee wearing white today.

 

[AlRums]

Lol'ing at the Farrell Haters, they've been waiting 2 years for Smith to start with a proper 12 and 13 outside him and he plays like that

Bring old Faz back in

In fairness to smith, he never had a platform to play from. It would be a great loss if he got binned on the back of this game

 

[Al Bangor]

Just kidding England. Every team gets blown out, sooner or later. Keep your heads up!

 

[munstermuffin]

Saidit before Stuart Lancaster is what this team needs now. He can revuild and get things right.
England are at a low ebb now and definitely linked to domestic game really gone down in standard and off field issues.
They are at key crossroads now and can bounce back IF they do the rebuild the right way.
Nor sure Borthwick is the right man to lead it though

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Lol'ing at the Farrell Haters, they've been waiting 2 years for Smith to start with a proper 12 and 13 outside him and he plays like that

Bring old Faz back in

Wat.

 

[Which Tyler]

This stat is always misleading - he was our best coach ever for his first RWC cycle but then one of our worst since then - the averages just haven't caught up yet

Define "worst", define "best" too for that matter.
Because statistically (which is what we're talking about), his second RWC cycle was bang average for an England head coach.

I'm also not sure how averages can "not have caught up yet" given that his term is finished, and the averages are in (and given our RWC group, and warm-up opponents, likely to increase).

ETA:
84-87 - 31% (Greenwood & Green)
04-07 - 45% (Woodward, Robinson, Ashton)
08-11 - 53% (Ashton, Andrew, Johnson)
96-99 - 56% (Rowell, Woodward)
20-22 - 58% (Jones)
12-15 - 61% (Lancaster)
88-91 - 68% (Cooke)
16-19 - 77% (Jones)
92-95 - 77% (Cooke, Rowell)
00-03 - 89% (Woodward)

Individually, and breaking up SWC and EJ into 2 stints each; EJ's second stint makes him statistically England's 6th (equal with SCW's first 4 years) best coach out of the 13 I can easily find stat.s for (ETA: Finally found some more, and am number-crunching).

 

[Which Tyler]

Dammit - I've timed out for an ETA, now that I've run the numbers:

Yes, I've gone ahead and, rather uncharitably, assumed that Ireland will win next weekend.
Source: 1970's

 

[khaazi66]

Lol'ing at the Farrell Haters, they've been waiting 2 years for Smith to start with a proper 12 and 13 outside him and he plays like that

Bring old Faz back in

Because Farrell made such a difference when he came on

 

[Amiga500]

I just Hope they transition through strongly from the U20s...

You did hear the score from Friday night? Right?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Whatever happened to Ford by the way?

Bad Achilles injury in the Prem final last year, only came back from it a couple of weeks ago and has played 1.5 games since
He's in the training squad but needs time to get up to speed first

 

[Amiga500]

They didn't lose today they were humiliated...at home by one of our arch enemies...and we'll never erase that one. Worse than the 70 odd defeat to Australia...

To be fair, could be worse.

Imagine if Wales had done that to yez. You'd never hear the end of it.

(It'd be like their version of 1966 ffs)

 

[BrokenWing]

Dammit - I've timed out for an ETA, now that I've run the numbers:
View attachment 16244

Yes, I've gone ahead and, rather uncharitably, assumed that Ireland will win next weekend.
Source: 1970's

I assume that should be 6th December 2022 for Eddie's second stint?

If not, that's quite the time travelling month of rugby.

 

[Geordie]

You did hear the score from Friday night? Right?

Yes but there's good individuals who can come through. Not taking much from the U20 result.

To be honest I think this france result has been good for England (and Ireland could be worse)because they know where they are now...and the issues people have raised MUST be dealt with.

My biggest gripe for so long has been the lack of real physicality in the whole side...and boy that was shown up yesterday.

I expect a mediocre world Cup...and then a total rebuild in the 6n 2024....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The XV we put out yesterday was far from the best to have ever worn the rose. But we should never be hammered by anyone like that at home. Ever. A bad beating by Ire and Borthwick and Sinfield will start to look like Liz and Kwasi hot on the heels of Jones' Boris.

Of those on duty yesterday.

Genge will have better days. Least of our problems, but arguments that VRR or even Marler would be more of what we need right now.

George. No serious alternatives. Solid enough but not a point of difference player at this level now. Wouldn't be a Lions player these days.

Sinckler has his moments, but the rage has gone and with it much of his effectiveness. 5 missed tackles and 3 pens against yesterday. Again, no serious alternatives.

We've heard about his changed role and health issues but Itoje is an experienced player who ought to be providing a real lead. Looks underpowered and hasn't performed to his reputation for ages. Time to give him a break to reenergise.

Chessum looks to be there for the long haul.

Ludlam is whole hearted but limited. Just keeping the shirt warm for someone else.

Willis was disappointing yesterday, but worth persevering with. Remains to be seen whether he can really nail down a starting shirt.

Dombrandt unfortunately doesn't look to have the required fitness or physicality. Mercer's shirt for the taking.

Lawes, T Curry Underhill and LCD were all missing and might have made a bit of a difference. The physicality of Hill and Martin will surely come into consideration after this tournament. Pearson and CCS will probably be closely looked at too.

When your pack's beaten up it's a tough gig for the backs. But even so.

Really don't know what to make of 9. Lots of young promising players most of whom are still pretty wet behind the ears at club level let alone internationally. JVP doesn't seem to have kicked on from Aus unfortunately. If we genuinely want to play high tempo than Randall's probably as good an option as any. Didn't help JVP that he was up against the best in the world yesterday.

The Smith selection failed. He was swimming uphill from the start, but didn't make the most of it either. Don't quite know where Borthwick goes from here but he should keep Smith for Ire to avoid killing his confidence and to make it look like he's got a semblance of a plan. If Ford can get back to anything like then he's probably our most balanced option.

Watson's fine but some ball in space would be nice.

Lawrence will have learned a lot yesterday but definitely worth persevering with.

Slade hasn't been great this year and looks like a luxury player at the moment. I'd have picked Daly if he'd been fit. Marchant doesn't seem to be trusted. When Manu's available I can now see Borthwick knee jerking to a Manu / Lawrence combo.

Like Dombrandt, Malins simply falls short at this level. Decent footballer but neither the pace, power nor devil for an international wing.

Steward's fine and was one of the few to stand up yesterday.

Mako's shot

Walker's not trusted

Cole did what Cole does but it's not really enough any more

Ribbans should be given a start v Ire. Not because he's done anything brilliant but because Itoje doesn't deserve to.

Surely Earl or Simmonds would be better suited to a sub role than B Curry.

Mitchell at least brings energy, if not control.

Farrell. Not really a bench guy. We know exactly what he can and can't do.

Arundell needs time and experience, but let's give him his head v Ire and see if he swims.

There are lots of reasons behind yesterday's result but Jones was right in that the harem scarem basketball stuff we see from some clubs in the prem isn't great preparation for the international game.

 

[BPM]

I don't think I've ever felt so depressed by sport. That was so bad I think I am going to take a break from rugby for a while. Thanks for the chat folks, I'm off to re-prioritise my interests.

 

[McTallshort]

Having slept on this I'm not sure what other side we could have put out. JVP had a crap game and there is a case for Ford at 10 but really that side is the best we have so it has to come down to the coaching and the current regime have only had 3 games. I'm inclined to think there was some serious rot creeping in in that last year of Eddie's reign which Borthwick and co are having to deal with. It's going to take time so let's just draw a line under this and move on