[2023 Six Nations] England v France 11 March 2023. Kickoff 16:45

[Amiga500]

About half the gap was probably attitude. The players might not like to hear it - but there it is.

No way should the 2nd try have been scored. 3 tackling one and the one makes about 3 yards through the tackle?
No way should the 2nd last try have been scored if Dombrandt had bothered sprinting as soon as he read the flight of the ball. 3/4 pace until Penaud had it in his hands isn't gonna cut it.

... and thats just 14 points off the top of my head. Never mind the scores of collisions easily won by the French which dictated the breakdowns thereafter.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Pundits in the Times and Guardian today tearing into Smith. Totally unfair given how badly the whole pack played and giving him such poor quality ball. Would Ford have been any better?

 

[BrokenWing]

Dombrandt looked out on his feet at that point.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Dammit - I've timed out for an ETA, now that I've run the numbers:
View attachment 16244

Yes, I've gone ahead and, rather uncharitably, assumed that Ireland will win next weekend.
Source: 1970's

Funny seeing how Woodward and Jones basically just swap places in their 2 halves, difference being joints took the team in the wrong direction and Woodward in the right direction.

For dombrandt, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but he hasn't had a single good game for England. I think we have now seen enough to say he shouldn't be there unfortunately. Mercer must be the first name when available. Not sure who we use in the interim.

 

[ncurd]

Pundits in the Times and Guardian today tearing into Smith. Totally unfair given how badly the whole pack played and giving him such poor quality ball. Would Ford have been any better?

Nope totally beaten up front Genge possibly the only one of note. JVP also stank no fly half looks good after that.

Was always going to be the case if we lost that the fly half gets the blame unless their name was Farrell.

I'm with Tallshort I don't see how this result would of been any better under EJ. That's pretty much the best team we can put out and we're too early in Borthers era to knownif its him or not being able to wash away the stink of the past 2-3 years. He needs more times with the players and the ability to completely repack the squad. All reasons why Eddie needed to go a lot sooner.

 

[LIONSxv]

Lots of posts and pundits going on about the lack of size in the English pack and the size of the French pack. This is not correct take Williamse out of that pack and
England are bigger and heavier in all other spots.
Dombrandt for example is about a stone and 2 inches taller than Aldritt. It obvious to me that teams are fitter, better coached and the big one more aggressive. We could have 20 stone monsters throughout the pack, if they can't run and don't have the right mentality size is pointless. France for example would of put out far bigger packs that yesterday in the past 15 years, however they didn't have the fitness or right mentality.
I saw Willis, Steward and Dombrandt just give up chasing yesterday. These are non negotiables at this level. They show poor coaching a level of mental discipline and poor fitness.
England should of appointed Shaun Edwards instead of Borthwick. At least under him we would of been organised, fit and no talent elements of our rugby would be far better. Aggression, preparation and fitness are all freebies at this level.
Players that need to be replaced
Sinkler, the fire has gone bin him to see if it comes back
Ludlam whole hearted but average at best at this level
Dombrandt not fit or strong enough for this level. I've always been a huge fan.
Jvp needs to go away and work on his game. Is far too often late or on the wrong side of the ruck
Farrel, not of international standard anymore
Malins not of international standard

Players to keep but need to seriously look at parts of their game
Slade needs to offer much more than he is at the minute. Needs to improve work rate
Steward, fabulous under high ball but gets gassed way too often. He is caught of position way too often.

Players to bring in

Underhill when fit and concussion free
Tom Curry when fit
Ted Hill is a must
Mercer needs to brought in now, not after the rwc
Tom Willis
Joel Kpoku

 

[BrokenWing]

JVP also stank no fly half looks good after that.

I found it baffling when presented with the ball at a ruck, he called two more forwards in and box kicked rather than simply passing it.

 

[General Melchett]

No offence intended but you guys could have had Ben White at 9 if Eddie Jones had done his job properly instead of doing consultancy work on the side for Japanese rugby.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I found it baffling when presented with the ball at a ruck, he called two more forwards in and box kicked rather than simply passing it.

I recall he lengthened one ruck by calling in a couple of forwards then dragging the ball back with his foot (always a bad sign) to the base before box kicking it to no effect. I knew from then it was going to be a very long afternoon with him at 9.

 

[BrokenWing]

I recall he lengthened one ruck by calling in a couple of forwards then dragging the ball back with his foot (always a bad sign) to the base before box kicking it to no effect. I knew from then it was going to be a very long afternoon with him at 9.

That was the one. He got the ball halfway back and the ref called ball out???

 

[Geordie]

Having slept on this I'm not sure what other side we could have put out. JVP had a crap game and there is a case for Ford at 10 but really that side is the best we have so it has to come down to the coaching and the current regime have only had 3 games. I'm inclined to think there was some serious rot creeping in in that last year of Eddie's reign which Borthwick and co are having to deal with. It's going to take time so let's just draw a line under this and move on

Borthwick has publicly said England are bottom of the stats in every feature of international rugby such as the scrum, turnovers, etc etc. That's how much they have to turn around.

Won't happen in 5 games.

Get through the world Cup.. bring in new faces

A new tighthead is crucial who can actually do things away from the scrum.
Ted hill or George Martin at 6 for real power
Decide on the 10 once and for all...maybe Finn Smith or someone Comes in to the equation

Bring in a proper 12 hopefully Kelly or the 6'4 Olly Hartley can make that position theirs and move Lawrence to his actual 13 position ...get shot of Slade once and for all.

Have a power option on the wing...get Malins away from this squad.

Decide if we want a brick wall reliability with issues of pace in defence with Steward or the explosive Arundel at 15...

Post World Cup will be huge...

 

[Geordie]

For dombrandt, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but he hasn't had a single good game for England. I think we have now seen enough to say he shouldn't be there unfortunately. Mercer must be the first name when available. Not sure who we use in the interim.

Agree...he looks under paced and under powered. Aldritt showed whats a class 8 is ..and Doris will next game

Meantime...we don't have an 8...Tom Willis? Mercer?

Chandler Cunningham South at Irish looks the man to take that spot soon. Has the lot....

 

[Welsh Exile]

Haven't watched the game yet but read the thread. Will be looking forward to watching this today with a few cans of Guinness. Nothing like a bit of schadenfreude on a Sunday afternoon. Especially when Wales are at 90 levels of mediocrity.

 

[higgik]

Lots of posts and pundits going on about the lack of size in the English pack and the size of the French pack. This is not correct take Williamse out of that pack and
England are bigger and heavier in all other spots.
Dombrandt for example is about a stone and 2 inches taller than Aldritt. It obvious to me that teams are fitter, better coached and the big one more aggressive. We could have 20 stone monsters throughout the pack, if they can't run and don't have the right mentality size is pointless. France for example would of put out far bigger packs that yesterday in the past 15 years, however they didn't have the fitness or right mentality.
I saw Willis, Steward and Dombrandt just give up chasing yesterday. These are non negotiables at this level. They show poor coaching a level of mental discipline and poor fitness.
England should of appointed Shaun Edwards instead of Borthwick. At least under him we would of been organised, fit and no talent elements of our rugby would be far better. Aggression, preparation and fitness are all freebies at this level.
Players that need to be replaced
Sinkler, the fire has gone bin him to see if it comes back
Ludlam whole hearted but average at best at this level
Dombrandt not fit or strong enough for this level. I've always been a huge fan.
Jvp needs to go away and work on his game. Is far too often late or on the wrong side of the ruck
Farrel, not of international standard anymore
Malins not of international standard

Players to keep but need to seriously look at parts of their game
Slade needs to offer much more than he is at the minute. Needs to improve work rate
Steward, fabulous under high ball but gets gassed way too often. He is caught of position way too often.

Players to bring in

Underhill when fit and concussion free
Tom Curry when fit
Ted Hill is a must
Mercer needs to brought in now, not after the rwc
Tom Willis
Joel Kpoku

Says something when we are saying the French are fitter!!!
Sadly it is true.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Haven't watched the game yet but read the thread. Will be looking forward to watching this today with a few cans of Guinness. Nothing like a bit of schadenfreude on a Sunday afternoon. Especially when Wales are at 90 levels of mediocrity.

Plenty of room in the mediocre Inn for both of us.

 

[higgik]

Borthwick has publicly said England are bottom of the stats in every feature of international rugby such as the scrum, turnovers, etc etc. That's how much they have to turn around.

Won't happen in 5 games.

Get through the world Cup.. bring in new faces

A new tighthead is crucial who can actually do things away from the scrum.
Ted hill or George Martin at 6 for real power
Decide on the 10 once and for all...maybe Finn Smith or someone Comes in to the equation

Bring in a proper 12 hopefully Kelly or the 6'4 Olly Hartley can make that position theirs and move Lawrence to his actual 13 position ...get shot of Slade once and for all.

Have a power option on the wing...get Malins away from this squad.

Decide if we want a brick wall reliability with issues of pace in defence with Steward or the explosive Arundel at 15...

Post World Cup will be huge...

The first decision needs to be game plan, pressure and power or speed and mobility.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Having slept on this I'm not sure what other side we could have put out. JVP had a crap game and there is a case for Ford at 10 but really that side is the best we have so it has to come down to the coaching and the current regime have only had 3 games. I'm inclined to think there was some serious rot creeping in in that last year of Eddie's reign which Borthwick and co are having to deal with. It's going to take time so let's just draw a line under this and move on

Yep, although there are big question marks on whether Borthwick has the experience and personality to do that. And Sinfield is still in short pants as far as union is concerned. This isn't hindsight, but what most of us said when they were appointed.

Last year we only lost by 12 points in Paris when Fra were chasing the GS. Many would say that our squad that day wasn't particularly inspiring either: Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Isiekwe, Lawes, Underhill, Simmonds, Youngs, Smith, Nowell, Slade, Marchant, Steward (on the wing with Genge returning kicks) Furbank. Bench of Dolly, Marler, Sinckler, Chessum, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Daly. Only 9 of those were on duty yesterday - some injuries, but some changing of horses.

Much as I enjoyed blaming Jones for everything, Borthwick can't hide behind that and the players we had yesterday shouldn't have been embarrassed like that. What bothers me is that there's been precious little evidence of a new coach bounce - forget results, but even in enthusiasm or energy - which suggests that Borthwick isn't really connecting with the players. If that's the case then he's going to struggle. When Jones came in he immediately got a better tune out of the hand he was dealt. Borthwick hasn't.

 

[Geordie]

The first decision needs to be game plan, pressure and power or speed and mobility.

Absolutely ..difficult to achieve in 4 games against sides who are 3/4 years down their development plan.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Plenty of room in the mediocre Inn for both of us.

Mediocrity is putting it kindly as well but probably just about fair.

I said at the start of the 6N that England and Wales are pretty much on the same level with Scotland. I revised that after it appeared how bad we've been but then, while I don't think we can blame off the field stuff, it would be unfair not to consider it a factor at all for our bad performances.

For me not much has changed.

Ireland and France are in a league of their own. Closely followed by NZ and SA. I'd put Australia in just behind NZ and SA in a little league on their own with maybe Scotland in there with them and then behind them you have England, Argentina, Wales and Italy and probably Fiji and Japan not far off either.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Goes without saying, that the WC is still a long way off and a lot can change in that time, though. I still expect England to get to a semi final given the favourable draw.