[2023 Six Nations] Ireland v England - 18 March 2023

[Bada-Bing!]

Honestly don't think there is a huge London price increase compared to a lot of the country now.

is this part of the whole levelling up?

 

[ncurd]

Did you like the London prices?

Actually the comedy club wasn't terrible...I mean it was but I'm use to clubs overcharging.

The theatre wasn't bad either.

Steak dinner yeah that bit...

Still overall not bad.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

This looks like it clears it up.

Appreciate it, even in retrospect

edit: deemed a yellow by the panel apparently, @Le Frére Alpha closing thoughts?

 

[NotTooAmused]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sanity prevails

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Dangerously low bar for unavoidable contact in my opinion.

Big union and social media pressure got to them, no way a Fijian escapes sanction there.

Edit: reasoning given and it's mitigation - Players not expected to anticipate a player bending over to pick up a ball is such a low bar. Haven't been this ****** off with a decision since Sam Cane got away with taking Henshaw's head clear off.
How can I send lads out to play a rugby match when grass roots referees, who are already pretty inadequate at protecting players from head contact, see that and are told it's not a red card? Massive failing.

 

[ncurd]

Big union and social media pressure got to them

A Scot, An Ozzie and a Kiwi going lax on England due to pressure?

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Downgrading is incredibly rare especially in high profile incident, just accept Peyper **** the bed on this one.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A Scot, An Ozzie and a Kiwi going lax on England due to pressure?

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Downgrading is incredibly rare especially in high profile incident, just accept Peyper **** the bed on this one.

Nah, you replace that knock on with a kick or backwards pass to ground and it's a red. Rugby has collectively lost it's **** over a knock on and all of a sudden expects a player not to play the whistle or situation.

Dangerous precedent that will make the game less safe at lower levels.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dangerous precedent that will make the game less safe at lower levels.

In what way?
It's still been acknowledged as foul play (which I still think is the wrong call) and that it should've been a card, just yellow not red - it's not like it was a situation that could be replicated on a regular basis
The fact that it was such a weird/split second accident is what's shone such a light on the grey areas of the law. IMO this verdict will strengthen the penalisation of this kind of thing - an amateur ref is never giving a red card for something like that, but a yellow? Possibly. If their decision is red vs play on they'll go play on

Ryan's dangerous ruck entry and Aki's dangerous tackle should be the cause for concern considering neither was penalised at any point in the game/citing process and are far more likely to be things that are occurring on a weekly basis and need to be stamped out of the game (Henshaw's is easily mitigated for)

 

[Reiser99]

I'll keep it simple.

Stewards was clumsy and an honest mistake with another player who was changing height and direction. I felt red was harsh, but I can see how a ref can get there if he follows to protocols and doesn't have days to review the incident.

All 3 Irish incidents were the result of players intentionally entering into contact in with players who did not change position or move. I've seen all 3 given red cards.

I don't mind people disagreeing on what sanction, but I do find it ridiculous that people are even trying to argue that some are less dangerous than others when it's clear any head contact can be dangerous.

 

[Welsh Exile]

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Dangerously low bar for unavoidable contact in my opinion.

Big union and social media pressure got to them, no way a Fijian escapes sanction there.

Edit: reasoning given and it's mitigation - Players not expected to anticipate a player bending over to pick up a ball is such a low bar. Haven't been this ****** off with a decision since Sam Cane got away with taking Henshaw's head clear off.
How can I send lads out to play a rugby match when grass roots referees, who are already pretty inadequate at protecting players from head contact, see that and are told it's not a red card? Massive failing.

Jesus Christ man, you whinge about us whinging and say "well all the officials agree with me and you think you know more than them?", now they have confirmed he actually got it wrong and you are on here doing exactly what you accused us of doing and making identical arguments (this is putting player safety at risk and making a mockery of laws to protect against head injuries).

 

[Rinkadink]

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In what way?

It's giving referees leeway. Referees at an amateur level are so reluctant to make any call involving head contact. We have an incident here where a player with horrendous body position gets away without a red card despite no third party mitigation - picking a loose ball up is now enough mitigation to reduce sanction is the precedent here. Reduction from red to yellow in the pro game far more closely translates to a reduction from penalty to play-on in the amateur game.

I keep seeing the argument of "what could he have done", no one has once questioned what he was doing in the first place to get himself in a position where he concussed a fellow player. It's the wrong attitude.

It's still been acknowledged as foul play (which I still think is the wrong call) and that it should've been a card, just yellow not red - it's not like it was a situation that could be replicated on a regular basis

The bolded is exactly what I mean above.

As for the rest, how can it not be replicated? It's a player picking up a loose ball, it happens every single game of rugby.

Ryan's dangerous ruck entry and Aki's dangerous tackle should be equally as/more concerning considering neither was penalised at any point in the game/citing process (Henshaw's is easily mitigated for)

I disagree that Ryan's ruck entry was dangerous, it was a controlled low paced movement in a static situation - injuries only happen here when players go flying in like POM v Wales awhile back - penalty only. Otherwise I agree and have said as much on this thread before, admittedly, getting frustrated and snarky.

https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...test-3-16-july-2022.48581/page-5#post-1095565

Just to prove I'm not being tribal, here I am talking about Andrew Porter in the last contentious decision Ireland were involved in, he should have been sent off. I said earlier in this thread that the active/passive consideration should be gotten rid of. Bad body position is avoidable and in a tackle situation is the leading cause of head injuries through foul play in the game. Anything short of heavy mitigation from a third party should result in a red card and that's more or less how it had been officiated until this decision excluding the active/passive consideration.

I also didn't go and get my own clips to go *** for tat against the claims that the game should have ended 14v12.

For all the bluster we get about fans stopping watching the sport because of incidents like that*, playing numbers is probably the biggest issue facing our sport right now, the average age in the top 4 amateur leagues in Ireland is 22. My previous club fielded 7 teams when I was there and it had just been reduced from 8, it'll be 4 next year and they nearly went bust over covid but for a few innovative schemes to get donations. My current club has gone from three teams to not being able to fulfill seconds fixtures. You can forget about the women's game.

People do not want to play this sport and risk injury and head injury is the top of that list. The laws are written in a way, and have enough precedent, that could have upheld that red card and they didn't. I just don't see how I can, in good faith, convince a guy that he will be looked after as much as possible on a rugby pitch if he's having second thoughts when World Rugby are creating new reasons not to fully sanction head contact.

*Clear BS looking at ticket prices, Netflix interest and viewing figures!

Jesus Christ man, you whinge about us whinging and say "well all the officials agree with me and you think you know more than them?", now they have confirmed he actually got it wrong and you are on here doing exactly what you accused us of doing and making identical arguments (this is putting player safety at risk and making a mockery of laws to protect against head injuries).

The Steward incident was never a green v white thing for me, which might be difficult for you to understand. I have hundreds of posts on these boards advocating player safety, clearly unlike most on here it goes beyond the jerseys they're wearing. The social media fall out, RFU and citing commissioner have put clubs and grassroots rugby in a worse position today than they were last week over the past few days.

But yeah look guys, well done, England should have lost by 5 rather than 13. I'll continue listening to guys tell me the game is too dangerous and quitting in their mid-20s and discussing how to keep clubs afloat after the few games we can field a team for.

 

[OllyM97]

Why are Irish fans trying to defend a favourable decision that has now been clearly stated as incorrect?. They wouldn't be saying the same thing if it was an Irish player that got sent off. Absolute rank hypocrisy. Just accept that Jaco Peyper made an absolute howler of a call.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair points, I do get where you're coming from on player safety but I still can't get my head around this being anything other than an accidental clash between two players
Yes it sadly ended up with a player coming out of it concussed but I still maintain there's next to nothing Steward could have done - If he dips to make a tackle (baring in mind Keenan didn't have the ball at the time and if he didn't regather the dropped ball it's a big hit off the ball): Keenan was bent double with his head further forward than any other point - that tackle likely would've hit the head first
If he didn't try and get out of the way by turning then Keenan is still taking contact head first - either chest or hip to the head, still dangerous

I disagree that Ryan's ruck entry was dangerous, it was a controlled low paced movement in a static situation

Which ended with a shoulder directly to a trapped players face - as mentioned somewhere above, either he entered recklessly and hit Ludlam's head or he entered in a controlled fashion and hit Ludlam's head. If Steward's actions are being judged on outcome (tried to get out the way and hit someone in the head) then trying to ruck legally and hitting someone in the head should be judged under the same microscope

As for the rest, how can it not be replicated? It's a player picking up a loose ball, it happens every single game of rugby.

But what's the action that is going to be replicated? Trying to jump out of the way and twisting your body in such a way that a bending player turns directly into your elbow? No one's going into a dropped ball situation thinking about regardless if it's a red or a yellow or a play on
I've never seen this kind of incident ever, at any level, that I can recall

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If it wasn't a forward pass I'd almost guarantee Freddie wouldn't have been in the position he was.

That's before we get into the fact that the Irish player ran head first into Freddie.

But at least common sense has prevailed for once which is rare. It seems more and more that world rugby is taking the competition out of a lot of situations (like high balls etc) which is the fun of rugby.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The Steward incident was never a green v white thing for me, which might be difficult for you to understand. I have hundreds of posts on these boards advocating player safety, clearly unlike most on here it goes beyond the jerseys they're wearing. The social media fall out, RFU and citing commissioner have put clubs and grassroots rugby in a worse position today than they were last week over the past few days.

But yeah look guys, well done, England should have lost by 5 rather than 13. I'll continue listening to guys tell me the game is too dangerous and quitting in their mid-20s and discussing how to keep clubs afloat after the few games we can field a team for.

I have no issue with you arguing the Steward incident should be a red under the argument of player safety, the issue is then making excuses for 3 other incidents of head contact, all of which the player had way more time to decide what to do. You argue there is less force but I have seen 3 instances of players running into contact and in the Aki case, a defender can be completely static in such a situation and still get a red as an "active" defender if they drive their shoulder up into a players face and knock them (which is what happened). In the Ryan case, he went into that at the pace a player would go in to clear out a ruck. There is clear precedent of red cards for players entering a ruck and smacking someone in the face that way. Sure he may not have absolutely flown in but he did line Ludlam up from a distance, who was trapped before he ran in, and clobbered him in the head. Circumstances didn't change in the ruck, there was nothing he could have thought he was achieving by hitting a trapped player like that so either he wasn't in control or he was in control and intentionally targeted the head of a trapped player.

Your defence was we were all whinging and the citing offers didn't agree with us, therefore we are wrong. Now the citing officers disagree with you on the red and you're calling their credibility into question, exactly as we were. It's the double standards you are being called up on, not necessarily arguing Steward should have had a red. Whether a player goes off for an HIA and / or whether they pass it is not the be all and end all of whether they were hit in the head with force, our experiences with North should show that clearly.

 

[Nudger]

Anyway I hope we don't see players running around bumping into players with their head ,to get players sent off

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Brand new tactic. Have a back row smash his head into the opposition FH on a carry and get them red carded.

Bosh!