[2023 Six Nations] Ireland v England - 18 March 2023

[munstermuffin]

Why are Irish fans trying to defend a favourable decision that has now been clearly stated as incorrect?. They wouldn't be saying the same thing if it was an Irish player that got sent off. Absolute rank hypocrisy. Just accept that Jaco Peyper made an absolute howler of a call.

I'm more happy that URC is back and that I get 2 trips to South Africa.

These minor competitions get all the kids hyperactive.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think this is a good discussion. People can disagree and still be respectful. It's obviously a bit partisan but I think everyone is approaching it in good faith.

I'm genuinely torn on it. I can see both sides, my gut says it wasn't a red same for the Ireland ones weren't either but letter of the law and all that I suppose.

I think the thing that annoys people on both sides of this debate is the inconsistency but to be fair to the officials it's difficult even more so at the elite level than at grassroots you don't get people clearing out at anywhere near the same level or way as they do at pro level but you have a different set of problems at grassroots and alpha makes a good point about the culture and messaging down to grassroots.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fair points, I do get where you're coming from on player safety but I still can't get my head around this being anything other than an accidental clash between two players
Yes it sadly ended up with a player coming out of it concussed but I still maintain there's next to nothing Steward could have done - If he dips to make a tackle (baring in mind Keenan didn't have the ball at the time and if he didn't regather the dropped ball it's a big hit off the ball): Keenan was bent double with his head further forward than any other point - that tackle likely would've hit the head first
If he didn't try and get out of the way by turning then Keenan is still taking contact head first - either chest or hip to the head, still dangerous

Steward makes two decisions which result in the second most dangerous possible outcome behind head to head contact in my mind. Firstly, he jumps, without his feet on the ground he has very little control of what he's doing. Secondly he turns his shoulder towards Keenan, maybe instinctively shouldn't matter after the first bad decision, if he opens up his body it delays contact ever so slightly and increases the chance of Keenan hitting his torso which increases the chance of there being no injury.

I've maintained the whole way that he was very unlucky but that two small bad decisions ended up with the worst possible result - it's enough for me to show red if we're actually serious about this.

Which ended with a shoulder directly to a trapped players face - as mentioned somewhere above, either he entered recklessly and hit Ludlam's head or he entered in a controlled fashion and hit Ludlam's head. If Steward's actions are being judged on outcome (tried to get out the way and hit someone in the head) then trying to ruck legally and hitting someone in the head should be judged under the same microscope

I think the incident being low paced and in a static situation is the difference. Look, I wouldn't be upset if we start being more serious with them but that's not where the game is and I don't think anyone arguing for a red there is doing so with sufficient knowledge and/or in good faith.

But what's the action that is going to be replicated? Trying to jump out of the way and twisting your body in such a way that a bending player turns directly into your elbow? No one's going into a dropped ball situation thinking about regardless if it's a red or a yellow or a play on
I've never seen this kind of incident ever, at any level, that I can recall

It's two players going for a loose ball. I keep saying that rugby has lost its mind over a knock on. If Hansen puts a delicate kick through there and the same happened no one would argue the result. We have advantage in rugby so you play the whistle, I don't think Steward did.

Andy Dunne is a really good pundit over here, he thinks Steward tried to get away with a sneaky one using the knock-on as an excuse. Now I don't think that's true for a second, it's a rare case of him being wrong, but it's far less ridiculous to suggest a player using a breakdown in play as cover to get a borderline hit in than it is that a player would go looking for head contact to get the opposition a red card as has been suggested here.

If we want to allow this in the pro game, and it's clear that most people do, we have to have separate head contact rules for pro and amateur rugby. Until then we have to do better.

I have no issue with you arguing the Steward incident should be a red under the argument of player safety, the issue is then making excuses for 3 other incidents of head contact, all of which the player had way more time to decide what to do. You argue there is less force but I have seen 3 instances of players running into contact and in the Aki case, a defender can be completely static in such a situation and still get a red as an "active" defender if they drive their shoulder up into a players face and knock them (which is what happened).

You don't know that's what happened, you've seen one angle of it. I also said in my first response to you it was probably a red but I couldn't say for sure without more angles.

In the Ryan case, he went into that at the pace a player would go in to clear out a ruck. There is clear precedent of red cards for players entering a ruck and smacking someone in the face that way. Sure he may not have absolutely flown in but he did line Ludlam up from a distance, who was trapped before he ran in, and clobbered him in the head. Circumstances didn't change in the ruck, there was nothing he could have thought he was achieving by hitting a trapped player like that so either he wasn't in control or he was in control and intentionally targeted the head of a trapped player.

Again you're making stuff up here to suit your view. Firstly, he's not clearing out the ruck, he's securing the ball by latching on to Irish players, Sheehan and VdF if I'm not mistaken. Secondly, Ryan doesn't run in, he has both feet on the ground entering the ruck. And thirdly, he just absolutely doesn't clobber him, there's no recoil, no whiplash, he pushes him with his shoulder.

We just don't see incidences like this given cards, maybe we should and I wouldn't be against it.

Your defence was we were all whinging and the citing offers didn't agree with us, therefore we are wrong. Now the citing officers disagree with you on the red and you're calling their credibility into question, exactly as we were. It's the double standards you are being called up on, not necessarily arguing Steward should have had a red. Whether a player goes off for an HIA and / or whether they pass it is not the be all and end all of whether they were hit in the head with force, our experiences with North should show that clearly.

I never made that argument, I said I didn't have a hot take because the officials and citing commissioner agree.

I shouldn't be put on the back foot, or ridiculed because of bad faith arguments like these. I am of the opinion right now that had Keenan hit Steward in a reverse of the incident we'd all mostly be in agreement that he should have seen red, Olyy and a couple of others would be the exceptions. This is a very anglo-centric website, it is very hard to voice an opinion against the English position and not be berated from all angles by posters who aren't even giving you the respect to read your posts correctly. Every point I've made I've relayed back to the laws of the game and evidence we have, and yet I've been ridiculed or called a hypocrite directly or indirectly by at least three other members. Do a bit better.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I shouldn't be put on the back foot, or ridiculed because of bad faith arguments like these. I am of the opinion right now that had Keenan hit Steward in a reverse of the incident we'd all mostly be in agreement that he should have seen red, Olyy and a couple of others would be the exceptions. This is a very anglo-centric website, it is very hard to voice an opinion against the English position and not be berated from all angles by posters who aren't even giving you the respect to read your posts correctly. Every point I've made I've relayed back to the laws of the game and evidence we have, and yet I've been ridiculed or called a hypocrite directly or indirectly by at least three other members. Do a bit better.

I value you as a poster and find your contribution to be overwhelmingly level headed, humorous and productive. I still disagree with points you are raising here but have no intention of making you feel ridiculed so will leave it at that. My personal style is fairly confrontational on such things so I apologise for that.

 

[General Melchett]

Or nimble footed scrum halves carrying head first into slow locks who can't react in time.

 

[NotTooAmused]

Or nimble footed scrum halves carrying head first into slow locks who can't react in time.

That would get me every time.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I value you as a poster and find your contribution to be overwhelmingly level headed, humorous and productive. I still disagree with points you are raising here but have no intention of making you feel ridiculed so will leave it at that. My personal style is fairly confrontational on such things so I apologise for that.

Yeah likewise. I'm happy to debate but I think we're both settled on separate positions and that's absolutely fine.

This was more just an observation, it's been years since Ireland v England has resulted in a bit of controversy and it was just an observation. It is a bit overwhelming when you're on the minority side. I'm well able for it personally but we do lose good posters from smaller nation's from time to time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah likewise. I'm happy to debate but I think we're both settled on separate positions and that's absolutely fine.

This was more just an observation, it's been years since Ireland v England has resulted in a bit of controversy and it was just an observation. It is a bit overwhelming when you're on the minority side. I'm well able for it personally but we do lose good posters from smaller nation's from time to time.

I used to post on Scum V before it closed so know the feeling, this was during the years of Welsh dominance too. Fun times.

 

[LIONSxv]

Also part of the discussion why are England's relationship with refs so poor? I can 100% guarantee you that if Sexton or Du Pont had become aware of incidents such as Ryans clear out and Aki head contact . They would of got the ref to review.
This is no reflection or Ireland or France but more so England's inability to play to the referee. NZ were masters at it

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads on the Freddie Steward thing.
I think we can all agree it wasn't malicious and certainly there was no intent to harm Keenan.

A collision that none of us know how we'd react but all agree he didn't go to do anything stupid. Authorithies dealt with it and as middle ground I'm glad it not a long ban.
Worst case scenario the duration of the game is a fair ban.

Now can someone get URC Thread going

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Also part of the discussion why are England's relationship with refs so poor? I can 100% guarantee you that if Sexton or Du Pont had become aware of incidents such as Ryans clear out and Aki head contact . They would of got the ref to review.
This is no reflection or Ireland or France but more so England's inability to play to the referee. NZ were masters at it

Owen Farrell

 

[LIONSxv]

Owen Farrell

Lawes,Curry and Genge didn't seem to get much change out of refs either tbf. This goes back to before Hartley and has gradually become worse.

Like it or not managing the ref had been a huge part of the game since the game turned professional.We just seem to ignore it

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

For all the bluster we get about fans stopping watching the sport because of incidents like that*, playing numbers is probably the biggest issue facing our sport right now, the average age in the top 4 amateur leagues in Ireland is 22. My previous club fielded 7 teams when I was there and it had just been reduced from 8, it'll be 4 next year and they nearly went bust over covid but for a few innovative schemes to get donations. My current club has gone from three teams to not being able to fulfill seconds fixtures. You can forget about the women's game.

People do not want to play this sport and risk injury and head injury is the top of that list. The laws are written in a way, and have enough precedent, that could have upheld that red card and they didn't. I just don't see how I can, in good faith, convince a guy that he will be looked after as much as possible on a rugby pitch if he's having second thoughts when World Rugby are creating new reasons not to fully sanction head contact.

We can argue til we're blue in the face about what might have happened had Steward not been sent off and one or more of the Irish guys had been. We can never know, but it's a shame when such a major call is judged to have been wrong. Ire, would prob still have won, but despite being a much better side they were a bit nervy and we were still in the game on the scoreboard at least. If we'd still been in touch 20 minutes later who knows what the pressure would have done to Ire.

Very true on the participation front:

My former club has gone from 6 regular sides to 2 with a v occasional vets. One of the largest mini sections around but just doesn't translate in to senior teams.

When playing for about 25 years in total I don't think I gave a second's thought to longer term health issues bar possible joint / back issues. Now a bit removed and knowing what we now know I fully get why parents may prefer to look at other sports for their kids. I certainly wouldn't be blindly advocating rugby to youngsters as I would have a few years ago.

 

[McTallshort]

He got sent off. That's it. Would England have won if he stayed on? Who knows and it's kind of irrelevant.

Ref sent him off and the decision has been reviewed and downgraded. Lesson learnt let's move on.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He got sent off. That's it. Would England have won if he stayed on? Who knows and it's kind of irrelevant.

Ref sent him off and the decision has been reviewed and downgraded. Lesson learnt let's move on.

Fat chance. I'm still bitter about Cueto's try in 2007!

I'm not as exercised about this as some. But the powers that be have now said that a huge decision in a huge match was wrong. Of course it's irrelevant now as you say, but the outcome might (probably wouldn't, but just might) have been different if a YC had been given on the day - a conclusion that many people arrived at in real time.

Yes, it was a hard call and there's more pressure on refs in real time but the refs that get these games are supposed to be the very best. A frustration is that there were good camera angles - it was clear to see what happened and there were 4 officials on the case. And still an incorrect decision was reached. A decision that was almost certain to have a material impact on the match.

No sour grapes against Ire BTW or conspiracy theories. Fully deserved GS.

Would love to be a fly on the wall at Peyper's house tonight.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I really feel like Peyper actually refs against England when he refs us. I 100% think he is biased against us.

 

[McTallshort]

I really feel like Peyper actually refs against England when he refs us. I 100% think he is biased against us.

Sound like a bok fan talking about Wayne Barnes.

 

[BrokenWing]

If Steve Borthwick did an hour video on the refereeing, I think we'd all be dead from boredom after 5 minutes tops.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If Steve Borthwick did an hour video on the refereeing, I think we'd all be dead from boredom after 5 minutes tops.

To be fair I get bored of any refereeing discussion that lasts more than 5 minutes.

 

[BrokenWing]

If Steve Borthwick did an hour video on the most interesting thing we could think of, I think we'd all be dead from boredom after 5 minutes tops.

Sorry, fixed my own post.