[2023 Six Nations] Ireland v England - 18 March 2023

[Rinkadink]

the contact and is a decent bit higher than the final pic

No, it's milliseconds before impact and as basically as close as I could pause it on my phone. The major take away is that there is a clear late change of height and direction. That's plenty enough mitigation to downgrade and a whole other argument if there was any foul play at all instead of a rugby incident.

...

To be consistent with your hot take you should be saying there were at least 3 red card offences for Ireland and you should have been down to 12 vs 14, correct?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No, it's milliseconds before impact and as basically as close as I could pause it on my phone. The major take away is that there is a clear late change of height and direction. That's plenty enough mitigation to downgrade and a whole other argument if there was any foul play at all instead of a rugby incident.

Get a better phone maybe? Keenan's face hits the stripes on Steward's jersey, his head is completely below them in your pic.

...

To be consistent with your hot take you should be saying there were at least 3 red card offences for Ireland and you should have been down to 12 vs 14, correct?

All have significantly less force, covered it. Not a hot take, a professional team of officials and the citing commissioners agree with me.

Wonder what inventive way England will get a red card against us next year to ***** and moan about not being within 10 points of us as an international team. That'll probably apply to world ranking points (only .3 off) as well as the last three internationals at that stage if they're determined to blame refs for losses and not their consistent, habitual ill discipline!

 

[BrokenWing]

That happens the other way and there's no ******* way you're not up in arms.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

their consistent, habitual ill discipline!

You can't dismiss an Aki red card in one breath then say this with the next! I'm not having it!

 

[The Seeker]

Congratulations to Ireland.

 

[TommiG88]

Anyone got Stats on Jonker. I always fear him being the TMO for England

 

[AlRums]

Anyone got Stats on Jonker. I always fear him being the TMO for England

As a ref

Marius JONKER | Stats | Records | Players | Rugby Database

View a full range of Marius JONKER refeeing stats. Drill down to individual results or filter records for something specific.

www.rugbydatabase.co.nz

 

[higgik]

You're wrong in two ways here.



34 seconds shows Keenan is going directly towards goal the entire time he's in possession. He's picking up a lose ball, it's not an unnatural position

Secondly, the change in direction rule is only applied to unnatural movements almost always caused by a third party tackler.

Just look at the contact lads, forget the knock on because that's not relevant until the whistle is blown. It is a high speed, high force, shoulder/elbow charge to the head with no attempt to wrap or even tackle. This is not a controversial card and does not suggest anything is wrong with the laws of the game.

Think Jonny W had it correct when he stated the following.
Keenan shapes to kick the ball, so Steward stays upright to defend the kick.
Keenan then changes to pick the ball up and is low and head forward and out of control. Steward realises he is in the wrong position and tries to back out but still makes passive contact.

 

[Smurfy]

You can't dismiss an Aki red card in one breath then say this with the next! I'm not having it!

Think Jonny W had it correct when he stated the following.
Keenan shapes to kick the ball, so Steward stays upright to defend the kick.
Keenan then changes to pick the ball up and is low and head forward and out of control. Steward realises he is in the wrong position and tries to back out but still makes passive contact.

Keenan is not for a moment out of control, and as for passive contact that clip shows clearly that Steward turns his shoulder and both feet are actually off the ground at contact. It also looks like Keenan adjusted his stride momentarily to gather the ball rather than shaping to kick. To be honest that whole argument is a nonsense, and I'm surprised that Wilkinson actually suggested it.

 

[Jimbo]

I don't really agree there was a sudden change, he sends himself flying in shoulder first from about two metres away as Keenan bends over to get the ball, he's rising back up by the time the collision

Sorry, jumping in at high speed.

He's tipped him past the horizontal though, why should any mitigation be considered? Willis created a dangerous position, I really don't know how that one can be argued.

Ireland's also weren't a high degree of danger though. Maybe Aki but Ryan's really is not, hence Ludlam staying on the pitch and Keenan going straight off - you realise the brain injuries are what we're trying to stop right?

Presenting an argument that considers Steward staying on the pitch and Ryan getting sent off is madness. Not considering the drop in performance of Ireland losing their best player due to foul play is also.

Without more angles on the Irish incidents it can be a red and a yellow at most. But both need to be examined closer to consider the high degree of danger, Aki's history would suggest to me it probably is there but Ryan never has enough force to even consider a red card.

Many of your comments/arguments are just soo irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it's your best player or worst foul play is foul play, we both know there was absolutely no intent and it was an unfortunate byproduct of a very unusual incident I don't disagree under the current guidance this probably had to be red, previously you mentioned only Ireland were making line breaks should that some how be factored into foul play, then there is the obvious second Ireland try that even the most die hard Irish fan will struggle to convince anyone else should been allowed to happen. Fair play the best team throughout the duration of the tournament won and better team on the day, but let's not pretend there was not a double standard here, England held to the letter of the law where as Ireland simply weren't, I'd hate to see a football like precedence set by players staying down and making sure things are thoroughly looked at but based on this game I wouldn't blame England players doing so, it's not like Sexton doesn't.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

fowl play is fowl play

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Many of your comments/arguments are just soo irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it's your best player or worst fowl play is fowl play, we both know there was absolutely no intent and it was an unfortunate byproduct of a very unusual incident I don't disagree under the current guidance this probably had to be red, previously you mentioned only Ireland were making line breaks should that some how be factored into fowl play, then there is the obvious second Ireland try that even the most die hard Irish fan will struggle to convince anyone else should been allowed to happen. Fair play the best team throughout the duration of the tournament won and better team on the day, but let's not pretend there was not a double standard here, England held to the letter of the law where as Ireland simply weren't, I'd hate to see a football like precedence set by players staying down and making sure things are thoroughly looked at but based on this game I wouldn't blame England players doing so, it's not like Sexton doesn't.

Literally everything I have said has had a point.

I'm done with this thread, you lads have the nerve to complain about the Welsh...

 

[Jimbo]

Literally everything I have said has had a point.

I'm done with this thread, you lads have the nerve to complain about the Welsh...

Mate, I'm just saying that unless you genuinely believe Stewart targeted one of your best and most irreplaceable players to take him out of the equation it's irrelevant in the context of foul play discussions, again making line breaks and not has no bearing, I'm not for a minute looking to go all Rassie and over analyse every potential FP incident plenty get missed and I'm pretty sure if I wanted too I could probably find some missed which would have favoured Ireland, just seems there was a pretty stark contrast with the justice dealt, whilst nothing more than a penalty your Ozzie import man handling Watson by the neck over the line resulting in the scrum which directly lead to the try was extremely obvious and called by many of us is real time.

 

[jcahill1]

Mate, I'm just saying that unless you genuinely believe Stewart targeted one of your best and most irreplaceable players to take him out of the equation it's irrelevant in the context of foul play discussions, again making line breaks and not has no bearing, I'm not for a minute looking to go all Rassie and over analyse every potential FP incident plenty get missed and I'm pretty sure if I wanted too I could probably find some missed which would have favoured Ireland, just seems there was a pretty stark contrast with the justice dealt, whilst nothing more than a penalty your Ozzie import man handling Watson by the neck over the line resulting in the scrum which directly lead to the try was extremely obvious and called by many of us is real time.

Seatbelt tackles are legal now, on the Hansen point.

 

[AlRums]

So how do we rate this in comparison



YC on the field later upgraded to red

Similar circumstances, Russell watching the ball last split second sees biggar and ducks

 

[ncurd]

So how do we rate this in comparison

YC on the field later upgraded to red

Similar circumstances, Russell watching the ball last split second sees biggar and ducks

I remember arguing at the time it was ridiculous it was a card. However that is the way the game has been reffed since still don't like it.

 

[General Melchett]

So how do we rate this in comparison



YC on the field later upgraded to red

Similar circumstances, Russell watching the ball last split second sees biggar and ducks

Wasn't it upgraded to a red within a few minutes on the field?

There seems to be a notion that for incidents like this someone always has to be at fault. It can sometimes be the case that the injured player's decision making was poor and contributed to the incident but this appears to get disregarded 'in the current climate'.

 

[Rinkadink]

So how do we rate this in comparison



YC on the field later upgraded to red

Similar circumstances, Russell watching the ball last split second sees biggar and ducks

Not sure it's a card at all, definitely not a red as mitigation (unsighted due to team mate)... that said it's an air contest and they are always weirdly reffed IMO.

Either way, 100% not red.

 

[AlRums]

Wasn't it upgraded to a red within a few minutes on the field?

There seems to be a notion that for incidents like this someone always has to be at fault. It can sometimes be the case that the injured player's decision making was poor and contributed to the incident but this appears to get disregarded 'in the current climate'.

He was cited post match and banned for 2 weeks

 

[Arcturus]

View attachment 16371
"We've checked it for you, Jaco, and the player is wearing white - so play on"
It's a penalty only but it's definitely a penalty - Hansen is over the shoulder and stays there throughout the whole tackle as he drags him down


Shoulder to the head as part of the same tackle as well

I thought something looked off when watching the game, but the seatbelt tackle combined with the no arms charge to the head with no mitigation is not a good look for the game.

Another moment during the game, Sexton was holding his head despite no prior high contact but dubious tackle by Dombrandt, to which Farrell queried the ref as to why Sexton hadn't gone off for a HIA if he was in some distress. Either Sexton was play acting or he did take a knock, either way that is again not a good look for the game.