[2022 Six Nations] Scotland vs France (26/02/22)

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

This could be a fun one - I can see France doing a France and being **** with Scotland getting a scalp and being hailed as the new All Black's by drunk people on the internet

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I can't see Scotland handling France's power game. We're the only side that I think has / thought had the ability to cope and we were utterly blown away for a half.

France by around 10, they seem a focused side and won't let the slam slip here. I think a Dupont injury is the only chance they get stopped at all.

 

[retired9]

In true Scotland style this could be the day for Finn's performance of the year, a kicking masterclass that pins France in the own half for vast swathes of the game....

Well I can always dream, can't see France bottling it but stranger things have happened. Murrayfield will be expecting some response from the Cardiff fiasco.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

In true Scotland style this could be the day for Finn's performance of the year, a kicking masterclass that pins France in the own half for vast swathes of the game....

Well I can always dream, can't see France bottling it but stranger things have happened. Murrayfield will be expecting some response from the Cardiff fiasco.

More likely tbh that this is his mare of a game and he starts throwing intercepts because he gets into a dickswinging contest of shithousery.

Much of that France team is capable of as many moments of magic as he is, and with the public fawning over the French magic, I can see him forcing stupid plays to try and win the spotlight back

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah I can see Finn's stock falling this 6n. He was pish v Wales, I don't see this week going well for him and his record v Sexton/Ireland is undesirable.

His style and the team he plays in tends to get him more attention, positive or negative, than he generally deserves so I don't envy him in a way. But equally, he's great friends with Simon Zebo so he deserves anything bad that happens to him.

 

[Jakedood]

The issue for Finn will be the likely lack of front foot ball to play with, and he will be frustrated by this french defense, meaning he'll also need to be on top form for Scotland to have any chance

Lets say for example if you put Dan Biggar into that Scottish team, you'd expect they lose by 10-15 points because of how ridiculous France are currently playing
So if we take that as a marking point, Scotland are going to need some magic to win this game, unless the French truly switch off, something they havent done for a while now
If a couple of things dont break his way I'd say thats absolutely fine, but they'll need the grubbers, dinks over the top and flat to the line passes to even have a chance

All this stuff of him being unreliable, like the yellow card last week while i understand, i think he way genuinely trying to bump it up and take it at second attempt before getting bumped out of the way by Welsh receiver, and was struggling to impact the game more due to the lack of front foot ball than anything else, wouldnt have said he was overtly poor
He used to be massively more inconsistent, but he does get a bad rap when in fact his game has developed tremendously whilst in France

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The issue for Finn will be the likely lack of front foot ball to play with, and he will be frustrated by this french defense, meaning he'll also need to be on top form for Scotland to have any chance

Lets say for example if you put Dan Biggar into that Scottish team, you'd expect they lose by 10-15 points because of how ridiculous France are currently playing
So if we take that as a marking point, Scotland are going to need some magic to win this game, unless the French truly switch off, something they havent done for a while now
If a couple of things dont break his way I'd say thats absolutely fine, but they'll need the grubbers, dinks over the top and flat to the line passes to even have a chance

All this stuff of him being unreliable, like the yellow card last week while i understand, i think he way genuinely trying to bump it up and take it at second attempt before getting bumped out of the way by Welsh receiver, and was struggling to impact the game more due to the lack of front foot ball than anything else, wouldnt have said he was overtly poor
He used to be massively more inconsistent, but he does get a bad rap when in fact his game has developed tremendously whilst in France

He's developed but his arms are still stupidly skinny for a pro athlete so **** him

 

[Jakedood]

He's developed but his arms are still stupidly skinny for a pro athlete so **** him

You must hate Farrell's noodle legs

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah I can see Finn's stock falling this 6n.

That would require the media to judge his game objectively - vs Wales he threw a wild pass in the 22m that went to ground/nowhere near where he intended, and the commentary were waxing lyrical about "Imagine if that HAD come off?! What a pass it would've been!"
The guy can do no wrong

 

[retired9]

That would require the media to judge his game objectively - vs Wales he threw a wild pass in the 22m that went to ground/nowhere near where he intended, and the commentary were waxing lyrical about "Imagine if that HAD come off?! What a pass it would've been!"
The guy can do no wrong

Was it that chump Nicol by any chance?

See I dunno, the media seems to be so black or white with Finn there is no in between. The beeb concluded the Cardiff game coverage with a film reel of Finns Failures it seemed. He also seemed to be blamed for a lot of the loss in Cardiff, obviously he was the reason VDM got stripped twice and there were knock-ons in tackles.....

I feel like this is Scotland at the moment, either surprisingly brilliant or very very average. Hastings is going to be part of the 10 future yet, there was a big Saffer at Edinburgh too who was in about it for a while.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Was it that chump Nicol by any chance?

The very same, ha

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The issue for Finn will be the likely lack of front foot ball to play with, and he will be frustrated by this french defense, meaning he'll also need to be on top form for Scotland to have any chance

It's the infamous "insert 10 here is rubbish because the only look good when their pack is on top". I'm yet to see a 10 who consistently performs well behind a beaten pack or who is very rarely behind beaten packs. Sexton for example is hailed as one of the top 10's, less so now but certainly over the last 5/10 years on average. He's always been behind either a Leinster or Ireland pack, neither of which are clearly beaten and when they have been, they've tended to lose.

I think Russell will struggle if the pack struggle but I think even the likes of Carter or Wilko, probably 2 of the most accomplished 10's ever, would struggle behind a poor pack. It's a bit of a non-argument when discussing how good a 10 is IMO. 10's are "force multipliers" for the most part, they can turn something good into something great and something great into world class if they are on top. Realistically though they need something to work with. If ruck ball is always slow, passing is inaccurate and people are running poor lines, the 10 can only pick between numerous poor options and will look poor by extension. All that's left in their control at that point is kicking, but even that becomes difficult if they resort to it too much.

 

[General Melchett]

It's the infamous "insert 10 here is rubbish because the only look good when their pack is on top". I'm yet to see a 10 who consistently performs well behind a beaten pack or who is very rarely behind beaten packs. Sexton for example is hailed as one of the top 10's, less so now but certainly over the last 5/10 years on average. He's always been behind either a Leinster or Ireland pack, neither of which are clearly beaten and when they have been, they've tended to lose.

I think Russell will struggle if the pack struggle but I think even the likes of Carter or Wilko, probably 2 of the most accomplished 10's ever, would struggle behind a poor pack. It's a bit of a non-argument when discussing how good a 10 is IMO.

100%

Russell at Racing 92 is consistent AF and rarely has a poor game whereas he has serious headwinds when he plays for Scotland due to the inferior pack. He even put a Lions series win against SA on a silver platter only for Sanjay and Curry to **** it away.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I can definitely see Scotland winning this. I'd go so far as to say they've a 40% chance based on selections. France showed enough lapses in concentration in the first two games to make me think they aren't cured and both of them were at home.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That would require the media to judge his game objectively - vs Wales he threw a wild pass in the 22m that went to ground/nowhere near where he intended, and the commentary were waxing lyrical about "Imagine if that HAD come off?! What a pass it would've been!"
The guy can do no wrong

Rugby Comms are hilarious for this carry on. Happened in the Munster game on Friday where they were looking at a replay and gushing at a "great pass from Healy" that went to ground and totally ruined an overlap

It's the infamous "insert 10 here is rubbish because the only look good when their pack is on top". I'm yet to see a 10 who consistently performs well behind a beaten pack or who is very rarely behind beaten packs. Sexton for example is hailed as one of the top 10's, less so now but certainly over the last 5/10 years on average. He's always been behind either a Leinster or Ireland pack, neither of which are clearly beaten and when they have been, they've tended to lose.

I think Russell will struggle if the pack struggle but I think even the likes of Carter or Wilko, probably 2 of the most accomplished 10's ever, would struggle behind a poor pack. It's a bit of a non-argument when discussing how good a 10 is IMO. 10's are "force multipliers" for the most part, they can turn something good into something great and something great into world class if they are on top. Realistically though they need something to work with. If ruck ball is always slow, passing is inaccurate and people are running poor lines, the 10 can only pick between numerous poor options and will look poor by extension. All that's left in their control at that point is kicking, but even that becomes difficult if they resort to it too much.

Sexton is a strange example, he's closer to Wilkinson and Carter than he is Russell in terms of quality (behind Carter and equal to Wilko imo but all three are very different stylistically). He is very much a 10 who always got the most out of any quality of ball his pack provided. The 2018 Heineken Cup final, the 2011 semi final and 2014 away game to France are immediately examples that comes to mind where Sexton won behind the weaker pack on the day, two of which were motm performances. Also the contrast between him and Carbery on the 2018 Australia tour is an example of how a 10 putting his team in the right positions and steering them through a game can elevate the packs level, I said that's what we missed with Carbery during the first half of the France game but was shot down for more black and white views of our pack being bossed and a 10 being worthless (one cowboy even suggested that Sexton being out was a good thing).

Mo'unga is probably the best comparison for the point you're making at the moment but I definitely think it's a flaw in his game. He was briefly spoken about as the world's best and is a very technically sound player but he is honestly quite clueless when it comes to steering his team through close games. As the gamebreaking moments have become less and less frequent with NZ as they're golden generation faded it's no surprise the results are getting worse with a 10 like him.

I think @Jakedood is referring to games where neither pack is massively dominant, teams do win games even when their pack aren't as good as the opposition as I've pointed out with Sexman. Obviously judging behind a totally dominant or dominated pack is a bit of a worthless exercise to rate a 10. You only have to look at Paolo Garbisi, he is definitely the best performing 10 at club level of any 6n starter this season but won't be talked about in the same breath as Sexton, Smith, Russell or N'tamack in the comp. I also only see this game as being one where France totally dominate Scotland.

Funnily enough both of Scotland's 6 Nations games are examples where the better pack on the day lost in my opinion and clearly illustrate the point JD is making. The double crossfield was a low percentage play, as was Hogg's play to send Graham through where he drew two guys and threw a flat to the line offload, both of which changed the result v England and equally some fairly shocking unforced errors from Russell did the same in reverse v Wales, they should have been more than a score up at the half.

I've always looked for 10s who could turn a game where a pack were 10-30% worse than their opponents into wins while also capitalising in virtually every game they're on top, I think Russell actually lacks more in the latter category, he fails to capitalise on dominant periods and tries outlandish things to recover. Scotland are just as likely to lose games they should win than they are to steal a win in a game where they were the less dominant side.

Post Carter I only have 5 guys who went through periods of providing both; Sexton, Barrett, Farrell, Sanchez and Biggar in descending order of consistency. I think you can be a good International class 10 without being able to do both, Pollard (great behind the SA pack but considerably less effective in tight games), N'tamack and Russell are obvious examples, but to be a WPOTY winner or nominee or leading relatively ordinary teams to the last 4 in a world cup you need to do both.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Rugby Comms are hilarious for this carry on. Happened in the Munster game on Friday where they were looking at a replay and gushing at a "great pass from Healy" that went to ground and totally ruined an overlap

Sexton is a strange example, he's closer to Wilkinson and Carter than he is Russell in terms of quality (behind Carter and equal to Wilko imo but all three are very different stylistically). He is very much a 10 who always got the most out of any quality of ball his pack provided. The 2018 Heineken Cup final, the 2011 semi final and 2014 away game to France are immediately examples that comes to mind where Sexton won behind the weaker pack on the day, two of which were motm performances. Also the contrast between him and Carbery on the 2018 Australia tour is an example of how a 10 putting his team in the right positions and steering them through a game can elevate the packs level, I said that's what we missed with Carbery during the first half of the France game but was shot down for more black and white views of our pack being bossed and a 10 being worthless (one cowboy even suggested that Sexton being out was a good thing).

Mo'unga is probably the best comparison for the point you're making at the moment but I definitely think it's a flaw in his game. He was briefly spoken about as the world's best and is a very technically sound player but he is honestly quite clueless when it comes to steering his team through close games. As the gamebreaking moments have become less and less frequent with NZ as they're golden generation faded it's no surprise the results are getting worse with a 10 like him.

I think @Jakedood is referring to games where neither pack is massively dominant, teams do win games even when their pack aren't as good as the opposition as I've pointed out with Sexman. Obviously judging behind a totally dominant or dominated pack is a bit of a worthless exercise to rate a 10. You only have to look at Paolo Garbisi, he is definitely the best performing 10 at club level of any 6n starter this season but won't be talked about in the same breath as Sexton, Smith, Russell or N'tamack in the comp. I also only see this game as being one where France totally dominate Scotland.

Funnily enough both of Scotland's 6 Nations games are examples where the better pack on the day lost in my opinion and clearly illustrate the point JD is making. The double crossfield was a low percentage play, as was Hogg's play to send Graham through where he drew two guys and threw a flat to the line offload, both of which changed the result v England and equally some fairly shocking unforced errors from Russell did the same in reverse v Wales, they should have been more than a score up at the half.

I've always looked for 10s who could turn a game where a pack were 10-30% worse than their opponents into wins while also capitalising in virtually every game they're on top, I think Russell actually lacks more in the latter category, he fails to capitalise on dominant periods and tries outlandish things to recover. Scotland are just as likely to lose games they should win than they are to steal a win in a game where they were the less dominant side.

Post Carter I only have 5 guys who went through periods of providing both; Sexton, Barrett, Farrell, Sanchez and Biggar in descending order of consistency. I think you can be a good International class 10 without being able to do both, Pollard (great behind the SA pack but considerably less effective in tight games), N'tamack and Russell are obvious examples, but to be a WPOTY winner or nominee or leading relatively ordinary teams to the last 4 in a world cup you need to do both.

Saw you say Sexton is close to Wilkinson and stopped reading tbh

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Saw you say Sexton is close to Wilkinson and stopped reading tbh

9 trophies to Wilkinson v 13 for Sexton (dismissing second rate or secondary ones like the challenge cup, powergen, triple crown and one off games) and both world player of the year once, Sexton the better Lion and marginally has the better record v NZ whereas Wilkinson has the higher international win record. Both were key players in any team they played for for most of their careers too (although Toulon continued to win without JW, Leinster went to **** without JS)

You're either massively overrating a world cup or massively underrating England's world cup winning team to dismiss this as a conversation so flippantly.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

9 trophies to Wilkinson v 13 for Sexton (dismissing second rate or secondary ones like the challenge cup, powergen, triple crown and one off games) and both world player of the year once, Sexton the better Lion and marginally has the better record v NZ whereas Wilkinson has the higher international win record. Both were key players in any team they played for for most of their careers too (although Toulon continued to win without JW, Leinster went to **** without JS)

You're either massively overrating a world cup or massively underrating England's world cup winning team to dismiss this as a conversation so flippantly.

**** out of here with rationality. Let me dislike the decrepit old man in peace

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Saw you say Sexton is close to Wilkinson and stopped reading tbh

I was almost the same. I'm not trolling, but is people rating Jonny Wilkinson as a fly-half actually a thing? He played behind possibly the most consistently dominant NH pack ever assembled and in my opinion contributed very little to England's performance in open play. I'd genuinely place him behind Finn, Biggar and possibly even Carty in open play. Genuinely not kidding here.