[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

TommiG88 · Feb 28, 2021

Welsh Exile said:
Oh, I'm a liar am I?

I guess it's not just Nigel that likes to make stuff up to get under the skin of the horrible English.

I'll try and dig it out for you but pretty sure it was the Rugby Pod so feel free to have a listen. I suppose I might've misheard/misunderstood Barnes but I can assure you I haven't made it up.

Maybe not a liar, but tedious and repetitive definitely

Welsh Exile · Feb 28, 2021

Jimbo said:
Your defence of Nigel is getting weaker and weaker here, that post I quoted was in response asking for clarification on the laws around jumping so an opinion was not what was asked for (contrary to Popular belief Nigel opinion and the law of rugby are not one of the same) secondly he was saying in his opinion it was not a try based on the belief it was a jump not a dive.

Im not contesting that there isn't a rule saying so which is why it goes down as dangerous play if you're going to penalise someone.

Also, I've shouted at Nigel Owens a lot more than I've applauded him so I'm not his number 1 fan or nothing. I just don't think he goes into games thinking "right I'm going to **** over the horrible English or French or what have you.

Welsh Exile · Feb 28, 2021

TommiG88 said:
Maybe not a liar, but tedious and repetitive definitely

I'll take that. That's a lot nicer than calling someone a liar I suppose.

ncurd · Feb 28, 2021

BrokenWing said:
He was on The Rugby Pod, and he did say the opinion was closely split on the incident.

However, listening to it, I can see how the laws can be somewhat misinterpreted through a chinese whisper effect so what is an area for interpretation becomes black and white.

Law is about dangerous play - jumping into a tackle COULD be dangerous, ergo, jumping a tackle is assumed dangerous play without looking at the incident in isolation.

2 Queries: What did Barnes say his interpretation was? Whist the other referee's were split did he explain why and at what sanction?

Either way the way Owens went about the campaign that week by constantly repeating it to whoever would listen and that he was definitively right without offering any nuance was part of the problem.

As to Owens the ref I don't think he was biased I think for a while he was the best ref out there. Then he started to get his after dinner cricuit for the way he dressed own players and I do think he then started reffing by reputation than what was happening. He lost my respect during the 2014 tour of NZ where he called a knock on twice against England and it clearly went backwards (this was after a long clearance kick by NZ, to give some idea of impact). Since then it was hard to watch a game where I thought he was outstanding. Mind you few refs are currently.

Welsh Exile · Feb 28, 2021

ncurd said:
2 Queries: What did Barnes say his interpretation was? Whist the other referee's were split did he explain why and at what sanction?

Either way the way Owens went about the campaign that week by constantly repeating it to whoever would listen and that he was definitively right without offering any nuance was part of the problem.

As to Owens the ref I don't think he was biased I think for a while he was the best ref out there. Then he started to get his after dinner cricuit for the way he dressed own players and I do think he then started reffing by reputation than what was happening. He lost my respect during the 2014 tour of NZ where he called a knock on twice against England and it clearly went backwards (this was after a long clearance kick by NZ, to give some idea of impact). Since then it was hard to watch a game where I thought he was outstanding. Mind you few refs are currently.

If I recall correctly Barnes didn't give his opinion. Which is the right thing to do really as he's still an active ref. He ain't stupid either.

BrokenWing · Feb 28, 2021

ncurd said:
2 Queries: What did Barnes say his interpretation was? Whist the other referee's were split did he explain why and at what sanction?

He didn't, he said it's a grey area that falls into the realms dangerous play and the decisions were split around whether it was a dive for the line or a jump over the tackle. The meeting he was talking about decided 18/15 in favour of a try.

Personally I didn't see anything dangerous in what May did, if he'd run at the guy front on and leapt at him then I could see the point.

Jimbo · Feb 28, 2021

BrokenWing said:
He didn't, he said it's a grey area that falls into the realms dangerous play and the decisions were split around whether it was a dive for the line or a jump over the tackle. The meeting he was talking about decided 18/15 in favour of a try.

Personally I didn't see anything dangerous in what May did, if he'd run at the guy front on and leapt at him then I could see the point.

Exactly that but what got me was how it was presented on Twitter by Owens knowing how highly he is regarded as a ref I feel it was very misleading and just not good for someone in his position.

BrokenWing · Feb 28, 2021

The example video on the laws website is of him saying "You can't jump into a tackle, you can't jump into a tackle" So what's everyone expect?

bushytop · Feb 28, 2021

You do have to feel for the English fan-base what with a high profile ex-referee questioning the fact that one of their tries was given against Italy in a 3 score game... I personally was shocked and appalled!

ncurd · Feb 28, 2021

bushytop said:
You do have to feel for the English fan-base what with a high profile ex-referee questioning the fact that one of their tries was given against Italy in a 3 score game... I personally was shocked and appalled!

Honestly the reason why it miffed me was it was fantastic finish and great athleticism. I'm unsure what we actually want out of the game if stuff like that isn't applauded and deserving of a penalty instead.

BrokenWing · Feb 28, 2021

bushytop said:
You do have to feel for the English fan-base what with a high profile ex-referee questioning the fact that one of their tries was given against Italy in a 3 score game... I personally was shocked and appalled!

View attachment 9518

Isn't that the wrong way round?

MarkyH · Feb 28, 2021

I'm so glad I stayed out of the match thread. Every year VC comes back with another Alias. This one is slightly better, maybe he's a teenager now ?

MarkyH · Feb 28, 2021

Also. An idea. Locking match threads 24/48 hours after the game? Stops them turning into an absolute horror show

TommiG88 · Feb 28, 2021

MarkyH said:
Also. An idea. Locking match threads 24/48 hours after the game? Stops them turning into an absolute horror show

I found this one mild....

bushytop · Feb 28, 2021

BrokenWing said:
Isn't that the wrong way round?

Not for me it's not

bushytop · Feb 28, 2021

ncurd said:
Honestly the reason why it miffed me was it was fantastic finish and great athleticism. I'm unsure what we actually want out of the game if stuff like that isn't applauded and deserving of a penalty instead.

So it all comes down to not giving the tackler an opportunity to tackle a player in the air. My solution would be that if a jumping player who already has possession of the ball before they leave the ground (ie not a player leaping to claim a kicked ball) that he can be tackled... even though they are in the air.

I know this will be perceived as incredulously dangerous but if a player feels that it would be too dangerous to get tackled in the air, just don't try and jump over a tackler. Obviously I have no preconceptions that World Rugby would ever consider this though.

ncurd · Feb 28, 2021

bushytop said:
So it all comes down to not giving the tackler an opportunity to tackle a player in the air. My solution would be that if a jumping player who already has possession of the ball before they leave the ground (ie not a player leaping to claim a kicked ball) that he can be tackled... even though they are in the air.

I know this will be perceived as incredulously dangerous but if a player feels that it would be too dangerous to get tackled in the air, just don't try and jump over a tackler. Obviously I have no preconceptions that World Rugby would ever consider this though.

Sure no problem

In this case the Italian player did try to make the tackle he just missed, which is is why I'm unsure how we can say he jumped out the tackle as I'm sure your allowed to avoid being tackled and he never had hold of May. Basically according Owens your not allowed to jump to avoid being tackled but every dive to the line is precisely to do that. It just doesn't make any sense.

Rinkadink · Feb 28, 2021

bushytop said:
My solution would be that if a jumping player who already has possession of the ball before they leave the ground (ie not a player leaping to claim a kicked ball) that he can be tackled... even though they are in the air.

To my (limited) understanding this is how many officials see and ref it currently which is one of the reasons why you don't see it more often.

Anyway as the above has been done so many times, back to the more relevant game... I think people in general aren't giving Wales enough credit for that performance. England were better than they have been by a notable amount (I didn't say good before I'm virtually slapped) and yet a developing Wales team stuck 40 past them. I think that is really going to hurt the England camp, very serious questions need to be asked by and of the RFU as the "grand plan" clearly isn't working. Will that happen, never mind a solution to those problems? I'm leaning towards no but at some point they must. The emperor has no clothes and all that...

bushytop · Feb 28, 2021

ncurd said:
Sure no problem

In this case the Italian player did try to make the tackle he just missed, which is is why I'm unsure how we can say he jumped out the tackle as I'm sure your allowed to avoid being tackled and he never had hold of May. Basically according Owens your not allowed to jump to avoid being tackled but every dive to the line is precisely to do that. It just doesn't make any sense.

... and I'm just playing Devil's advocate here but not every dive goes over a defender.

ncurd · Feb 28, 2021

bushytop said:
... and I'm just playing Devil's advocate here but not every dive goes over a defender.

In which case why are we not talking about him jumping over a player rather than out of a tackle?

As noted this conversation is very old now...

[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

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