[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

[Which Tyler]

Ultimately, I think you have to chose between one of two things.
A] Are you a product of that nation's rugby system?
or
B] Do you feel like a son/daughter of that nation?

The first is easily clarified, and I'm sure we could produce rules that everyone would agree to be a fair representation; even if it allows for multiple nationality up until the choice is made.
The second is absolutely impossible to clarify, and certainly not the right of anyone who isn't directly involved in each individual case to tell someone that they're wrong about their own feelings.

I know people who are immigrants themselves, and felt at home and like they'd finally found themselves in less than a year (she likened it to coming out of the closet). I know others who are 2nd, or even 3rd generation immigrants who feel more strongly that they belong to their "country of origin" than where they've actually lived all their life.


What we've got a the moment is a compromise between the 2 positions. I'm actually okay with the rules as they have become - residency needed to be put longer than 1 RWC cycle, it now is. I'd like it to be 2 grandparents rather than 1, but I'm not too fussed about that, given some of the people I know above (I've got 1 patient who's an extremely patriotic 3rd generation Welshman, with a strong Welsh accent; his mother was a proud, daffodile bonnet and pink glittery cowboy hat wearing Welshlady, and would be his closest relative who could have represented Wales under the current rules)

 

[ncurd]

Correct me if I'm wrong but both of Shields' parents are English? How can you say he does not have a genuine connection to England or that it's a technicality? That makes no sense to me. Again, I have no idea what he really feels and I doubt you do either to be honest.

Both his parents moved to New Zealand at an incredibly young age (like they probably barely remember living here), and Shields himself played for NZ U17's and U20's (winning a world cup). It was plainly obvious he came here because he had no chance of getting in AB's back row.

As to rest and here's probably something I never explain I never said it had to be the last country only just after you declared it reset. So if you lives in 3 separate countries for 5 years between 0-5, 6-10 and 11-15 you'll have a total of 3 countries you pick from.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't know the specifics here but it sounds like a fairly legitimate case of a player playing for who he wants rather than settling.

No one, in the history of forever, has chosen to be Welsh when there were other options on the table

 

[sCriv]

Genuinely can't see England winning another game unless we seriously sort our discipline out. Like in the Scotland game, a lot of needless penalties again against Italy, which other teams would make us pay dearly for.
Add to that Wales off the back of two huge wins and will be bang up for this as usual - they wait all year for this game. after all.

Can seriously see Wales winning this one, even though in my humble opinion they've been extremely fortunate in their last two games. It's all down to how England perform though. Not much confidence right now, in our match tactics, selection or form.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Do they? Or are we just framing society wrong?

Lets take British Asians as an example do they have strong connections to sub-continent? Or do they in reality do they have strong connection with the British Asian community? And in turn is the British Asian treated outside of Britian rather than part of it by those outside of it? Because of that they are forced into a identity of being 'Asian' when the reality is they have no idea of living a life there. I look at COVID and the way people talk of Asian communities as if they are not really British. Thus they cling to something that if they lived in those countries would actually be unrecognisable to the life they live.

Its complicated I know.

They certainly can, and often do. You only have to come over here and listen to the amount of 40-60 year olds with English accents whose parents moved due to recession and oppression who returned since the 90s when the opportunity arose to realise. It's not like Dublin was ever more prosperous, or a more desirable place to live than London or other sizeable UK cities to anyone without a strong incentive to live here.

Agreed it's complicated and that it can go both ways for sure.

No one, in the history of forever, has chosen to be Welsh when there were other options on the table

I haven't considered voodoo to be fair.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No one, in the history of forever, has chosen to be Welsh when there were other options on the table

And no one, in the history of forever, when they've had more than 1 option on the table, has chosen England for any other reason than money.

 

[ncurd]

They certainly can, and often do. You only have to come over here and listen to the amount of 40-60 year olds with English accents whose parents moved due to recession and oppression who returned since the 90s when the opportunity arose to realise. It's not like Dublin was ever more prosperous, or a more desirable place to live than London or other sizeable UK cities to anyone without a strong incentive to live here.

I'd argue they are English who simply want to live and work and in a different country of which they have heritage roots which is cool. Doesn't make them Irish though.

I certainly have little desire to want to live in this country currently, I could make a similar argument for living in a few country's but whilst I feel a strong connection to Ireland, South Africa and Singapore (I'm not Asian at all, my Mum happened to spend a significant part of her childhood there) it doesn't make me any less English. I also don't claim to be a Londoner despite living there for 3 years.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And no one, in the history of forever, when they've had more than 1 option on the table, has chosen England for any other reason than money.

 

[Which Tyler]

I certainly have little desire to want to live in this country currently, I could make a similar argument for living in a few country's but whilst I feel a strong connection to Ireland, South Africa and Singapore (I'm not Asian at all, my Mum happened to spend a significant part of her childhood there) it doesn't make me any less English. I also don't claim to be a Londoner despite living there for 3 years.

Which is fine.
Presumably, you're not in a position where anyone is telling you how you should feel, or what you can do about your feelings.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'd argue they are English who simply want to live and work and in a different country of which they have heritage roots which is cool. Doesn't make them Irish though.

I'm sorry, that's total bollix.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah but it is tough to judge, I mean there certainly have been times players have been called for to play here and not really excelled. He sees things in training others don't, and Ive certainly played in teams where there may be highlight reel moments from players on the 2's but that doesnt make them better than, or immediately bring thim onto the 1st XV

Its a new system, sadly he's looking to optimise within the current rule structures. Improvise, and adapt, no matter how much it takes, and remember he doesnt have these players for an entire offseason like club coaches do. He gets a few weeks then bang, into the test arena. Sadly tweaking the old attack which featured heavy territory based plans wouldnt have made a whole lot of difference. He now wants less of this in games, and more heads up rugby, thats not an overnight thing

Amor wont have total control, Eddie will be deciding how they play, and Amor is looking at implementing that tactically in games. I get the lack of experience, but also again, remember he wont make wholesale new looks to the England attack in one month of a job

I agree re change, but if you think Eddie is the same in private as he is in public, you've another thing coming. Hearing how he talked to Genia and Hartley, he's telling Farrel how **** he is on the regular

Les than the sum of parts currently, but lets see if anything changes by this time next year. I've a feeling it'll be looking vastly different to an England fan

Man management i'd say is more a strength. He's brutally honest, which you respect, and deal with players on a horses for courses basis, doesnt treat them all the same as most coaches do. Billy V said something to this effect when he first came in. Some players need the carrot, others the stick, and he doesnt beat around the bush and lead you on with false promises.

On the man management front ask Lawrence what he thinks. Or the likes of Harrison, Burrell and Isiekwe who all got pulled before half time (if they were really that bad remind me who picked them in the first place) or the likes of Ford and Mako who he publicly name checked as having been wrong selections for the RWC final. Or any of the back rowers who Shields was parachuted in front of. Or any understudy to Binny, Youngs etc who hasn't got a look in despite sustained poor form from the incumbents. And those are just off the top of my head.

Honesty is important, but there's a lot more to man management than that. Consistency for one and there's no way you could accuse him of applying the same standards to all. In the Botham article on the BBC his Beefiness said that to him looking in the Eng camp didn't seem a happy one and I reckon he's probably nailed it.

Yes, too early to judge Amor. But his lack of credentials as player or coach will make it more difficult for him to persuade the players to buy into him. He's not got the automatic status that Jones or Mitchell had when coming in. That's just human nature. Maybe he's got what it takes but he's going to be swimming uphill for a while.

Jones reminds me a bit of Mourinho, still chuntering into the mirror that he's the special one. As an Eng fan I hope he's right, but all coaches have their shelf life and I have a feeling he's reached his (don't forget that most of his earlier successes came from short term impact not long term building).

 

[ncurd]

Which is fine.
Presumably, you're not in a position where anyone is telling you how you should feel, or what you can do about your feelings.

I think it comes to the original divide you suggested I'm strongly of the opinion your nationality is to do with country you're a product of that country.

Having and feeling strong roots to another simply not a factor.

 

[Jakedood]

On the man management front ask Lawrence what he thinks. Or the likes of Harrison, Burrell and Isiekwe who all got pulled before half time (if they were really that bad remind me who picked them in the first place) or the likes of Ford and Mako who he publicly name checked as having been wrong selections for the RWC final. Or any of the back rowers who Shields was parachuted in front of. Or any understudy to Binny, Youngs etc who hasn't got a look in despite sustained poor form from the incumbents. And those are just off the top of my head.

Honesty is important, but there's a lot more to man management than that. Consistency for one and there's no way you could accuse him of applying the same standards to all. In the Botham article on the BBC his Beefiness said that to him looking in the Eng camp didn't seem a happy one and I reckon he's probably nailed it.

Yes, too early to judge Amor. But his lack of credentials as player or coach will make it more difficult for him to persuade the players to buy into him. He's not got the automatic status that Jones or Mitchell had when coming in. That's just human nature. Maybe he's got what it takes but he's going to be swimming uphill for a while.

Jones reminds me a bit of Mourinho, still chuntering into the mirror that he's the special one. As an Eng fan I hope he's right, but all coaches have their shelf life and I have a feeling he's reached his (don't forget that most of his earlier successes came from short term impact not long term building).

Okay so just to check, he has a large group of players he hasnt seen before, so in his first test series or two, he tries Harrison and Burrell, neither of whom you would really argue are international standard correct? Isiekwe was one for the future, but i dont pretend to know the nuances of test rugby well enough to see what he saw and why he took them off
Lawrence was likely more to go with his tried and trusted, yes he's given Farrell more opportunity but he has earned some credit at least, and having credit in the bank makes it harder to judge whats form and whats ability
Form is temporary, class is permanent

I'd also say I think most posters here seeing the way the game went would have wanted a stronger scrummaging loosehead Ala Marler, and a tougher midfield, so yes he did call them out.

I dunno, the England boys are getting videoed for Inside line and having a jolly old time of it. Unhappiness may come in camp from poor performances, and disappointment in themselves, but it doesnt mean everybody suddenly hates Eddie Jones

Also take into account how Jones is not a coach to rest on his laurels. I think he works hard on himself as a coach, and despite what Mike Brown said, I liked how Haskell responded to it, in that there's got to be some sense when chatting to a coach, you dont call em out in front of a whole squad and undermine authority
Understood on Amor, Im not saying he's amazing or not, just that he's had little time. I'd still take him over Rob Howley (cause I'd take my granny over Howley)

Yes England attacking wise were poor in autumn nations, and I think Eddie is looking to address that now. But I'd say he deserves a year or so and if you cant see changes, fair enough. Likely a lot of new caps this summer interspersed with the likes of Mark Wilson style players for experience

Just wouldnt lose my head off 2 games, you wouldnt really for a club side. I'm a baseball fan (shoot me i know) but in their shortened season, the best players around were struggling, and thats still a 60 game season v 162 game season. Either you'll look back and say "he improved" or if he hasnt then he'll go. Its as simple as that. The standard of last two games isnt good enough, but fixes dont happen overnight is all I'm saying

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wasn't just these 2 games though, it was the whole Autumn and much of the last 6N (despite the fact we won it) plus the wash out that was the RWC final.

If Jones takes the plaudits for the QF and SF performances which were very good then he's also got to take the brickbats for what's happened since.

And if we leave it a year or so and things don't improve then a new coach only has a year until the next RWC to mould their team. For financial reasons as much as anything else I doubt we'll see a change though.

BTW I'm not saying that Jones was wrong in his post event thinking about Ford and Mako and the RWC final. I just thought he was totally out of line to say it publicly and if both players didn't go privately ballistic then they're bigger men than I am.

I don't mind losing (occasionally and not to Wales) but I just can't see any clear pattern or rationale in what we've been trying to achieve with what is a very experienced group of players.

 

[Jakedood]

Wasn't just these 2 games though, it was the whole Autumn and much of the last 6N plus the wash out that was the RWC final.

If Jones takes the plaudits for the QF and SF performances which were very good then he's also got to take the brickbats for what's happened since.

And i think it was during autumn he started to look at improving the attack

England were probably the best performing team in the world cup, South Africa were just immense that day while England lost their composure. Cant slate a teams tactics a week after you rpobably lauded them for the NZ performance, its the way they played rugby and was effective (though Tuilagi was a large part of that, I do think a strike runner is important as I've mentioned)
The six nations was finished in september wasnt it? So hard to really get an accurate post WC feel from it, meaning it and the ANC were the first chances to see where his team was at over a course of games
Again I'd direct you to Charlie morgan for Telegraph, a very interesting article, and they are a team in transition. Make no mistake though, Eddie is clearly not afraid to mkae tough decisions, like when he simply told Hartley "you're ****** mate"
He's not a hugely "defense only" coach historically either, so I dont think Mourinho comparisons are fair when you take in how Australia played under him, how Japan played under him, and how England have played at times under him (less so in last year or so ofc)

Just to clarify, I get that England arent looking great offensively, I get it's not what you guys expect, but lets give him the chance to really develop this team for next WC, which if I remember correctly happened a lot between what will equate to this summers tour, and the following summer

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And i think it was during autumn he started to look at improving the attack

...when?
Our attack has been on a pretty significant downturn since the world cup - our tries come from individual efforts (i.e. May on a mad one) not any sort of formal attack structures and heads up play - and looked the worse it's ever at the start of this 6N.
If he's used the Autumn, and this 6N, to work on attack then he's failed mmaassiivveellyy

 

[Jakedood]

...when?
Our attack has been on a pretty significant downturn since the world cup - our tries come from individual efforts (i.e. May on a mad one) not any sort of formal attack structures and heads up play - and looked the worse it's ever at the start of this 6N.
If he's used the Autumn, and this 6N, to work on attack then he's failed mmaassiivveellyy

I thin he started after the Autumn, with the way things were being reffed, and there has been a noticeable difference in structure, towards the way the Allblacks structure their forwards around the pitch

He's also without the attacks coach he wanted, who's using Zoom to contact the squad.. this is not ideal at all. I think there's enough mitigation not to sack the man, im not saying he's the messiah but he's a bloody good rugby coach and deserves a year to see if there is any progression. If there isnt, I'd imagine he'll not be around too much longer after that

Time wise, as I said, I'd reckon he's worked for a month or so, 2-3 weeks on a new structure pre scotland, and a week pre italy on top of that. It'll get there, and we'll see what happens, but I think the criticism is a little harsh over a small sample size. Particularly given its hard to attack when losing the kicking battle and territory battle so heavily, most teams you'll find rarely go more than a few phases in their own half these days
I think there's enough mitigation here personally, and not to jump the gun on him

Inside Line: As in 2018, England are undergoing a tactical reboot… but five defining selection calls loom

England spread their forwards across the field in a 1-3-2-2 formation, hinting that a tactical revamp is underway

www.telegraph.co.uk

How Japan's Class of 2019 is inspiring England's 1-3-2-2 attacking revolution

Exclusive interview: 'Eddie will have a smart plan happening' - Japan attack guru Tony Brown backs Jones to invigorate under-par England

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Scotty]

So is the roof open or closed? Please say we get EJ Gatland style media fight for the roof.

 

[ncurd]

Don't we have a gif or meme for wrooofff arguements?

 

[Welsh Exile]

To be honest, Drakeford is missing a massive trick here. For the life of me I have absolutely no idea why we can't round up 72 thousand vaccinated Welshman and women and pack out the stadium. We could keep it a secret from the English so they wouldn't realise until they get there. Obviously could just close it down after the game. It would literally guarantee us the win. As I say, trick missed.