[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd never argue with Binny at the best of times and I'm not about to start now.....

'I've been playing rubbish': Billy Vunipola admits to poor England form

England’s No 8 Billy Vunipola said he hopes to rekindle his form against Wales on Saturday and conceded: ‘Eddie probably thinks someone has cloned me’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd never argue with Binny at the best of times and I'm not about to start now.....

'I've been playing rubbish': Billy Vunipola admits to poor England form

England’s No 8 Billy Vunipola said he hopes to rekindle his form against Wales on Saturday and conceded: ‘Eddie probably thinks someone has cloned me’

www.theguardian.com

I'd pick a fight with him these days. He's never had much of the fight in him and if I start to lose I can just jog away, he'd get tired after 1 minute.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Bothams cheering for Wales in Six Nations encounter with England

He might be the epitome of English sporting greatness, but Lord Botham of Ravensworth OBE admits he will be happy to support Wales this weekend in the Six Nations.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ncurd]

Bothams cheering for Wales in Six Nations encounter with England

He might be the epitome of English sporting greatness, but Lord Botham of Ravensworth OBE admits he will be happy to support Wales this weekend in the Six Nations.

www.bbc.co.uk

How Welsh is James? His father Liam is very English and despite them making a big deal about Ian playing for England in Cricket it's always been the England and Wales team so that is nonsense reporting.

Ian of course is actually completely English having been bought up in exactly the same town as me.

Just read he was born and moved at 2....proving the complete nonsense of country of birth.


Still I'd support my nephew if he played for a different country....we'd be having word about why he didn't declare for England.

 

[Welsh Exile]

How Welsh is James? His father Liam is very English and despite them making a big deal about Ian playing for England in Cricket it's always been the England and Wales team so that is nonsense reporting.

Ian of course is actually completely English having been bought up in exactly the same town as me.

Just read he was born and moved at 2....proving the complete nonsense of country of birth.


Still I'd support my nephew if he played for a different country....we'd be having word about why he didn't declare for England.

Yeah, he was born in Wales and considers himself Welsh.

Inthink I remember reading that he would drive something ridiculous like 6 hours to train for the age grades in Wales. Committed to the cause.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah, he was born in Wales and considers himself Welsh.

Inthink I remember reading that he would drive something ridiculous like 6 hours to train for the age grades in Wales. Committed to the cause.

The lads English but reads like he made it part of his personality growing up as kids do and commitment to the bit has gotten a bit out of hand

 

[Jakedood]

Interesting to read all this England teams things

First off, most international teams dont blood you in the first time you're called up to a squad. You have to learn the new attacking systems and style of play, and that doesnt come overnight. I'd say EJ and his youngish shadow squad are in preparation for the summer tours, so they can hit the ground running and give a true account of themselves

However, while some players may not be in form, it can be a team thing, and they just need that confidence and fluidity back. I agree England are better with two playmakers and a strike runner in midfield, and Jones does as well, but this is a very intelligent coach, i'd say his issue would usually be more overthinking than underthinking?

I'd also say when blooding new caps, it's a lot easier to do so when the team around you arent relying on you to change the game, they can guide you through the step up in intensity.

Rugby is a team game, not an individual one, and articles I've seen show that Eddie Jones is restructuring englands attack (Charlie Morgan wrote a good piece in the telegraph). Doesnt come overnight, but these are talented rugby players, they'll get the hang of it.

That said, I'd say having hear that inside line, Farrell is not the kind of captain i'd listen to a lot, or really inspire me overly. He seems to struggle with words, and therefore would need to be the captain who leads from the front, which you cant really do as an out half, that style needs to be in the forward pack. Very interesting seeing Curry helping out Ted Hill, and also thought Mark Wilson looked a quality senior squad member

Daly is struggling for sure, and maybe Malins does deserve a go, but you'd say not a whole lot of full back are tearing up... maybe with two playmakers in midfield, an Anthony watson style full back could actually be effective, and add in a new winger?

 

[Welsh Exile]

The lads English but reads like he made it part of his personality growing up as kids do and commitment to the bit has gotten a bit out of hand

Welsh through and through mate.

 

[ncurd]

Welsh through and through mate.

He's as Welsh as Geroge North is English

 

[Welsh Exile]

He's as Welsh as Geroge North is English

The thing is, though, if George North spent his childhood travelling to England to play age grade rugby and wore the rose on his sofa at home cheering them on and what not and, more importantly, considered himself English then he would be. Well, in my book anyway.

I don't think there's a 1 rule fits all when it comes to this but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Interesting to read all this England teams things

First off, most international teams dont blood you in the first time you're called up to a squad. You have to learn the new attacking systems and style of play, and that doesnt come overnight. I'd say EJ and his youngish shadow squad are in preparation for the summer tours, so they can hit the ground running and give a true account of themselves

However, while some players may not be in form, it can be a team thing, and they just need that confidence and fluidity back. I agree England are better with two playmakers and a strike runner in midfield, and Jones does as well, but this is a very intelligent coach, i'd say his issue would usually be more overthinking than underthinking?

I'd also say when blooding new caps, it's a lot easier to do so when the team around you arent relying on you to change the game, they can guide you through the step up in intensity.

Rugby is a team game, not an individual one, and articles I've seen show that Eddie Jones is restructuring englands attack (Charlie Morgan wrote a good piece in the telegraph). Doesnt come overnight, but these are talented rugby players, they'll get the hang of it.

That said, I'd say having hear that inside line, Farrell is not the kind of captain i'd listen to a lot, or really inspire me overly. He seems to struggle with words, and therefore would need to be the captain who leads from the front, which you cant really do as an out half, that style needs to be in the forward pack. Very interesting seeing Curry helping out Ted Hill, and also thought Mark Wilson looked a quality senior squad member

Daly is struggling for sure, and maybe Malins does deserve a go, but you'd say not a whole lot of full back are tearing up... maybe with two playmakers in midfield, an Anthony watson style full back could actually be effective, and add in a new winger?

I'd say Jones' issue isn't the amount of thinking he does but stubbornness and poor man management.

Ref attack. You evolve not destroy and rebuild. Amor the attack coach has precisely no credentials in 15s.

On new caps it's best to blood into a team that's settled (which this is) and coherent (which this isn't). But if incumbents are regularly underperforming, which they are, then you need to see change to give the senior players a kick up the jacksie if nothing else.

We are definitely less than the sum of our parts. Whether Jones and his coaching team can pull it around I'm less than convinced.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yeah, he was born in Wales and considers himself Welsh.

Inthink I remember reading that he would drive something ridiculous like 6 hours to train for the age grades in Wales. Committed to the cause.

Genuine question as I don't really know anything about him; was it a case of him travelling that far because he was dedicated to playing for Wales or because he wasn't getting picked for England so travelling to Wales was his only option? Because I know a fair few people where that was the case.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Genuine question as I don't really know anything about him; was it a case of him travelling that far because he was dedicated to playing for Wales or because he wasn't getting picked for England so travelling to Wales was his only option? Because I know a fair few people where that was the case.

I honestly have no idea. According to his dad and grandad it was never a question of who'd he wanted to play for as he's always considered himself Welsh I believe.

Obviously you could say "of course they'd say that" and choose not to believe it and for all I know they might be lying but this is why I say it's bullshit having these discussions unless you know the player personally very well and know what's in their heart.

It's easy to say "He's not Welsh" or whatever but a lot of this will be how you feel, how you've been brought up etc etc and unless you're privy to that info then it's all just guesswork.

For example, for all we know the Vunipola s consider themselves more Welsh than English but went to England for the money. I don't think to it's true but who knows?

 

[Jakedood]

I'd say Jones' issue isn't the amount of thinking he does but stubbornness and poor man management.

Ref attack. You evolve not destroy and rebuild. Amor the attack coach has precisely no credentials in 15s.

On new caps it's best to blood into a team that's settled (which this is) and coherent (which this isn't). But if incumbents are regularly underperforming, which they are, then you need to see change to give the senior players a kick up the jacksie if nothing else.

We are definitely less than the sum of our parts. Whether Jones and his coaching team can pull it around I'm less than convinced.

Yeah but it is tough to judge, I mean there certainly have been times players have been called for to play here and not really excelled. He sees things in training others don't, and Ive certainly played in teams where there may be highlight reel moments from players on the 2's but that doesnt make them better than, or immediately bring thim onto the 1st XV

Its a new system, sadly he's looking to optimise within the current rule structures. Improvise, and adapt, no matter how much it takes, and remember he doesnt have these players for an entire offseason like club coaches do. He gets a few weeks then bang, into the test arena. Sadly tweaking the old attack which featured heavy territory based plans wouldnt have made a whole lot of difference. He now wants less of this in games, and more heads up rugby, thats not an overnight thing

Amor wont have total control, Eddie will be deciding how they play, and Amor is looking at implementing that tactically in games. I get the lack of experience, but also again, remember he wont make wholesale new looks to the England attack in one month of a job

I agree re change, but if you think Eddie is the same in private as he is in public, you've another thing coming. Hearing how he talked to Genia and Hartley, he's telling Farrel how **** he is on the regular

Les than the sum of parts currently, but lets see if anything changes by this time next year. I've a feeling it'll be looking vastly different to an England fan

Man management i'd say is more a strength. He's brutally honest, which you respect, and deal with players on a horses for courses basis, doesnt treat them all the same as most coaches do. Billy V said something to this effect when he first came in. Some players need the carrot, others the stick, and he doesnt beat around the bush and lead you on with false promises.

 

[ncurd]

I honestly have no idea. According to his dad and grandad it was never a question of who'd he wanted to play for as he's always considered himself Welsh I believe.

Obviously you could say "of course they'd say that" and choose not to believe it and for all I know they might be lying but this is why I say it's bullshit having these discussions unless you know the player personally very well and know what's in their heart.

It's easy to say "He's not Welsh" or whatever but a lot of this will be how you feel, how you've been brought up etc etc and unless you're privy to that info then it's all just guesswork.

For example, for all we know the Vunipola s consider themselves more Welsh than English but went to England for the money. I don't think to it's true but who knows?

For me residency (as a child/teen) actually counts far more than country of birth or even parentage. If it were me in charge I'd have 10 years residency as the only rule, with each year under 18 counting for double but playing age grade rugby declares you and resets any residency you may have. I might keep the parent rule but it becomes void if you play age grade.

I know its a mad idea but I think where your from has far more to do with where you lived than anything else.

 

[Welsh Exile]

For me residency (as a child/teen) actually counts far more than country of birth or even parentage. If it were me in charge I'd have 10 years residency as the only rule, with each year under 18 counting for double but playing age grade rugby declares you and resets any residency you may have. I might keep the parent rule but it becomes void if you play age grade.

I know its a mad idea but I think where your from has far more to do with where you lived than anything else.

Thats fine and I may even agree with some of it but the problem I see with that is this, you're essentially telling people how to feel. That, in this day and age, is bullshit.

How can you tell someone who has been brought up a certain way, who considers themselves of X nationality or even people who you can trace their blood line back centuries that "sorry, I don't care about how you feel or what your heritage is I'm telling you your this" that, to me does not seem right at all and I don't imagine it would be very popular amongst the majority of people. Again, I see where your coming from though.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Whether on purpose or not I find it interesting that these arguments usually are argued from the perspective of a person from a big economy completely disregarding the massive increase of strength immigration provides their player pool while arguing that where you were born/live should be the only measures considered when picking who you can play for versus someone from a smaller economy arguing the opposite while showing a far clearer understanding of how close a connection diaspora can have to their country of heritage.

1st generation and in many cases 2nd generation immigrants can definitely hold a closer bond to the country of parents or grandparents than the one they grew up in. We also forget that the individual is far more important than the system when producing talent, no system can turn a gifted athlete with no motivation or work ethic into an international and a kid whose motivation is to play for the country he/she has supported since they can remember being told they can't stinks in my opinion. Sure there has to be rules but the stricter the rule doesn't equal a more genuine international game.

Saying that I think the rules are still too lax. Billy Burns simply put, isn't Irish, he qualifies through one grandparent and even has a picture up on his Instagram in an England soccer shirt ffs. One parent and two grandparents (potentially even two maternal or paternal grandparents) should be the minimum standard, you'll still find abuses of the rule but far less abhorrent ones than we currently see.

I don't know the specifics here but it sounds like a fairly legitimate case of a player playing for who he wants rather than settling.

 

[ncurd]

Thats fine and I may even agree with some of it but the problem I see with that is this, you're essentially telling people how to feel. That, in this day and age, is bullshit.

How can you tell someone who has been brought up a certain way, who considers themselves of X nationality or even people who you can trace their blood line back centuries that "sorry, I don't care about how you feel or what your heritage is I'm telling you your this" that, to me does not seem right at all and I don't imagine it would be very popular amongst the majority of people. Again, I see where your coming from though.

I think there a major difference of being proud.embrancing your heritage and that being where your from. That seperation is key, take Shields from a few seasons back the guy essentially played for England on a technicality and I don't think anyone believes he felt English. And that's the problem in country V country sport it has to be about people playing with genuine connection for those countries or we might as well just do away with it and have the world cup be between Exeter Chiefs and the Crusaders.

 

[ncurd]

1st generation and in many cases 2nd generation immigrants can definitely hold a closer bond to the country of parents or grandparents than the one they grew up in.

Do they? Or are we just framing society wrong?

Lets take British Asians as an example do they have strong connections to sub-continent? Or do they in reality do they have strong connection with the British Asian community? And in turn is the British Asian treated outside of Britian rather than part of it by those outside of it? Because of that they are forced into a identity of being 'Asian' when the reality is they have no idea of living a life there. I look at COVID and the way people talk of Asian communities as if they are not really British. Thus they cling to something that if they lived in those countries would actually be unrecognisable to the life they live.

Its complicated I know.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think there a major difference of being proud.embrancing your heritage and that being where your from. That seperation is key, take Shields from a few seasons back the guy essentially played for England on a technicality and I don't think anyone believes he felt English. And that's the problem in country V country sport it has to be about people playing with genuine connection for those countries or we might as well just do away with it and have the world cup be between Exeter Chiefs and the Crusaders.

Correct me if I'm wrong but both of Shields' parents are English? How can you say he does not have a genuine connection to England or that it's a technicality? That makes no sense to me. Again, I have no idea what he really feels and I doubt you do either to be honest.

As matey boy said above, all this would do is massively benefit rich countries/economies so I can see why you'd be all for it being the richest nation in rugby but to be honest I think this would have the exact opposite effect of what your would want to happen, I.e, actually what would happen is you'd just have a load of people playing for England who deep down didn't feel or consider themselves to be English but had to under your rules.

I can see it now, the RFU would be going around the world headhunting kids and luring them to England by giving them a scholarship at one of their fantastic private boarding schools and capture them that way which would then force the child to feel a certain way even if they did not feel English. It's a terrible idea just going to residency. Oh, I forget you do this already. Wink wink.

At the end of the day, identity is complex, humans are complex. We haven't even touched on the idea that people can, for example, feel affinity to more than 1 nation. You can feel English and Pakistani. Jeez, even in this weird little island of ours you have people who feel English and British so as it's not one rule fits all.