2021 British & Irish Lions Squad

[TRF_Olyy]

As soon as the Irish bubble burst (presumably debrief on Sunday and then everyone goes home after) a call up for Sexton is a much longer process than it would've been if he went instead of Smith

 

[Welsh Exile]

Here's the issue though if they go down tomorrow fine but what about the day of the test? What if both test positive for COVID and its not out of the realms of possibility? With Russell we would of tested hands even if it does blow up the game plan (its why I never expected him or Ford to make the plane) . With Smith we have a complete unknown quantity who's completely untested thats just a ridiculous decision however which way you cut it especially when the other option is Sexton who absolutely will fit into the system and is a known quality player.

Tin-foil hat time I wonder if its punishment for taking over the backs in NZ which I suspect was more him than Farrell.

Maybe that's another point of difference they wanted. The unknown quantity actor. To be honest I don't really see the point in having Sexton Farrel and Biggar, they're all too similar. I'm glad we've got someone who offers something a bit different. In fact I think it's crucial. As I'm sure you remember that was my logic for why Tipuric should have be in the match day 23 as he does things others in his position can't and I'd say the same applies to Smith albeit as you rightly point out, he's a risk.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This is a straw man. I see it in your most recent post too. Not picking Irish players harms the IRFU financially. Your only arguments here are that he has picked Irish players, well of course he has, Ireland have been one of the top sides in all of his three cycles often with the best record against SH sides and higher performing clubs than Scotland and Wales, and then your strange xenophobic red herring.

At what point do we look at a clear and growing trend of unfavorable selections against Irish players and call a spade a spade. Like one of your counters is literally that Andrew Porter was picked over Thomas Francis, do you think you could find anyone who honestly thinks the latter is better?

To reiterate, this is a man who publicly said his players hate the Irish players, a statement which wasn't echoed by his players.

You talk in such a matter of fact way on issues that are totally subjective. These are your opinions. They are not facts. You think they're unfavourable but have you ever considered that your opinion is incredibly biased towards Irish players?

I'll give you a fact, though, Ireland have been one of the biggest underachievers in World Cup history for such a prestigious nation so if he wanted to punish the IRFU so much he wouldn't of picked any and could've just used that BS logic to exclude Irish players when asked, he could've treated them like Scotland in previous tours. He didn't though, funny that. It's almost like he picks players he rates and trusts, hence the **** load of Irish on this tour even though you had an average 6N

 

[anderton46]

AWJ is 35, plays a much more attritional position, and just got a serious shoulder injury - people are chomping at the bit for him to get back there
Yet a fully fit Sexton is a bridge too far?

Just because someone is fully fit doesn't mean they deserve to be picked does it? The guy has looked bog standard for a while now. I'm also fully fit, get me on the plane!

 

[ncurd]

Just because someone is fully fit doesn't mean they deserve to be picked does it? The guy has looked bog standard for a while now. I'm also fully fit, get me on the plane!

You could make exactly the same argument for AWJ who almost certainly isn't fully fit.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You could make exactly the same argument for AWJ who almost certainly isn't fully fit.

AWJ doesn't have to be fully fit as we saw in 2019 when we thrashed Ireland in the GS game. AWJ done his knee ligaments in that game really early on and still played the rest of the game. Oh, and did I mention we thrashed Ireland that day with an AWJ with 1 knee.

 

[dullonien]

I obviously rate Smith a little higher than some. The fact Quins haven't been competitive in Europe is not down to him, but a team/coaching issue that they will hope has been addressed. Sexton has always been bang average at WC's, but I've never counted that against him because it's been a squad issue.

Smith is a game changer, Biggar, Farrell or Sexton (anymore) just aren't in the same way. Russell is as well, so I can 100% see why they've gone like for like there. Depending on Farrell's form, I can see Gats/Townsend wanting a gamechanger like that on the bench. Everyone sees Gats as some super conservative coach, and in some ways he is, but he's also keen on a playmaker at 10 if available e.g. Priestland and Anscombe for Wales at different stages. In between those 2 Biggar was literally the only option.

Sexton was OK in the 6 nations imo. Ireland struggled to really get going, especially in attack. Biggar started off with some poor performances, I won't deny that. I was calling for his head at the time, but he turned it around to put in some of his best performances to date in a Welsh shirt, which shows the kind of character coaches love.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

Ireland is the rugby nation that underachieves at every RWC but says "we beat the All Blacks" to justify their 'greatness.'

Imagine if they did reach a WC. We'd never hear the end of it

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just because someone is fully fit doesn't mean they deserve to be picked does it? The guy has looked bog standard for a while now. I'm also fully fit, get me on the plane!

I thought that when he was named captain, glad we're on the same page

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You talk in such a matter of fact way on issues that are totally subjective. These are your opinions. They are not facts. You think they're unfavourable but have you ever considered that your opinion is incredibly biased towards Irish players?

Totally subjective, agreed, with a constant trend against Ireland. Please address his comment re hating Ireland players, please, it's so thinly veiled.

I'll give you a fact, though, Ireland have been one of the biggest underachievers in World Cup history for such a prestigious nation so if he wanted to punish the IRFU so much he wouldn't of picked any and could've just used that BS logic to exclude Irish players when asked, he could've treated them like Scotland in previous tours. He didn't though, funny that. It's almost like he picks players he rates and trusts, hence the **** load of Irish on this tour even though you had an average 6N

Least amount of players on tour having finished second of the four nations consecutively? Having hammered the one team that finished ahead of them in two of the last three encounters and only losing the most recent one narrowly because of a red card. You're making stuff up now.

World cup point isn't even worth commenting on.

Just because someone is fully fit doesn't mean they deserve to be picked does it? The guy has looked bog standard for a while now. I'm also fully fit, get me on the plane!

Sexton literally outplayed every 10 on tour when 1 on 1 against them this calendar year. Apart from Marcus Smith who wasn't good enough to play against him.

AWJ doesn't have to be fully fit as we saw in 2019 when we thrashed Ireland in the GS game. AWJ done his knee ligaments in that game really early on and still played the rest of the game. Oh, and did I mention we thrashed Ireland that day with an AWJ with 1 knee.

Imagine loving a fat old guy so much that you post this. Why so antagonistic, no one else has said anything incendiary.

Ireland is the rugby nation that underachieves at every RWC but says "we beat the All Blacks" to justify their 'greatness.'

Imagine if they did reach a WC. We'd never hear the end of it

Nevermind there's more. It must be what defending a completely indefensible position does to a person.

 

[ncurd]

Its almost hilarious watching (most) England fans say their player isn't ready yet because he's only played two games against Canada at international level and (most) Welsh fans somehow justify their selection because they can't take any critism towards Gats.

 

[ncurd]

Smith wasn't even in the England shadow squad in the 6 nations, he's a talented bloke but shouldn't be anywhere near a Lions jersey at the moment.

 

[big ginger 8]

I obviously rate Smith a little higher than some. The fact Quins haven't been competitive in Europe is not down to him, but a team/coaching issue that they will hope has been addressed. Sexton has always been bang average at WC's, but I've never counted that against him because it's been a squad issue.

Sexton was OK in the 6 nations imo. Ireland struggled to really get going, especially in attack. Biggar started off with some poor performances, I won't deny that. I was calling for his head at the time, but he turned it around to put in some of his best performances to date in a Welsh shirt, which shows the kind of character coaches love.

Firstly, I'm not sure Sexton's world cup record has become part of the conversation? Apart from another poster taking a scatter gun approach maybe. Surely his test record as a Lion is more relevant to the conversation? However, I do think you are conflating team performance with Sexton's individual performance. He probably hasn't been to the standard he'd expect of himself but he wasn't bang average either. In 2011 he started the Australia game and was a key part of us topping our group. The ever conservative Kidney then dropped him for ROG at the QF stage where a lack of an attacking threat at 10 really hurt us. In fairness his goalkicking was also a bit of an issue at the time. in 2015 we again topped our pool lead by Sexton but he go injured in a very nasty game against France and missed the Argentina game. In 2019 he was definitely off but he wasn't involved in the Japan game.

You give Biggar credit for turning his performances around as the 6N went on but Sexton did the exact same with his best performance against England and it's not a factor?

AWJ doesn't have to be fully fit as we saw in 2019 when we thrashed Ireland in the GS game. AWJ done his knee ligaments in that game really early on and still played the rest of the game. Oh, and did I mention we thrashed Ireland that day with an AWJ with 1 knee.

This is completely unnecessary and benefits no one.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Totally subjective, agreed, with a constant trend against Ireland. Please address his comment re hating Ireland players, please, it's so thinly veiled.

Least amount of players on tour having finished second of the four nations? Having hammered the one team that finished ahead of them in two of the last three encounters and only losing the most recent one narrowly because of a red card. You're making stuff up now.

World cup point isn't even worth commenting on.



Sexton literally outplayed every 10 on tour when 1 on 1 against them this calendar year. Apart from Marcus Smith who wasn't good enough to play against him.


Imagine loving a fat old guy so much that you post this. Why so antagonistic, no one else has said anything incendiary.



Nevermind there's more. It must be what defending a completely indefensible position does to a person.

What is there to address? Gatland made some comments about how the players hate the Irish the most coz they play against them regularly in the league. I mean, is that it? Is that what you're getting your knickers in a twist about? Some mind games that only has a degree of truth in it? Gatland does this to various other nations as well. No one is saying Gatland can't be a prick. Most managers are at times.

It's been a very even split of players all things considered and I think it's great and for the most part seems pretty fair. Obviously I don't agree with all of the decisions but it is what it is.

The WC is worth commenting on as the point is, if Gatland is as anti Irish as you say he is (sorry anti IRFU) then he could have used that logic to not pick any/many if he was so inclined. He could've said Wales won the GS in 2019, Wales and England both had great WCs in 2019, England won the 2020 and Wales won the 2021 so on the basis I of Ireland's crap WC record and England and Wales good domestic record I've gone for largely English and Welsh player. Now, that would have been BS logic but if he's so anti Ireland could've done it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Firstly, I'm not sure Sexton's world cup record has become part of the conversation? Apart from another poster taking a scatter gun approach maybe. Surely his test record as a Lion is more relevant to the conversation? However, I do think you are conflating team performance with Sexton's individual performance. He probably hasn't been to the standard he'd expect of himself but he wasn't bang average either. In 2011 he started the Australia game and was a key part of us topping our group. The ever conservative Kidney then dropped him for ROG at the QF stage where a lack of an attacking threat at 10 really hurt us. In fairness his goalkicking was also a bit of an issue at the time. in 2015 we again topped our pool lead by Sexton but he go injured in a very nasty game against France and missed the Argentina game. In 2019 he was definitely off but he wasn't involved in the Japan game.

You give Biggar credit for turning his performances around as the 6N went on but Sexton did the exact same with his best performance against England and it's not a factor?



This is completely unnecessary and benefits no one.

It's a joke. Considering the amount of vitriol that is aimed at Gatland from all nations and towards players like AWJ I don't think it's that bad. It is true as well. But I'll apologise if it makes you all feel better.

 

[Groundhog]

I say it's xenophobic because you and other Irish lads are saying he isnt picking Sexton because he's Irish. It's that simple. You can say oh he doesn't hate the Irish it's the IRFU he hates but according to you and others he is persecuting Sexton for that hatred and Sexton is Irish so that to me is xenophobic. We obviously work on different definitions of discrimination due to nationality. I'm not aware of any personal beef he has with sexton but if you have any info I'm not aware of my opinion could be swayed as I've always said you never know what goes on behind closed doors but this, again, could be personal and nothing to do with his nationality.

I think he knows it's a straight shootout between Biggar and Farrel for starting 10 That's a decision he has made. Russell went due to Townsend and I'm sure there was an element of "if he impressed me on tour he's got a chance" kind of thing and the same
Might apply to Smith it's a bit late in the tour for him.

As I've said, if Bigs or Farrel go down tomorrow not only do I think Sexton gets the call I think he overtakes Smith in the pecking order and we'd probably see him involved in the first test but we'll never know (unless Bigs or Faz get injured tomorrow)

Call it Xenophobic if you want, but I won't be. I'm inferring bitterness with a former employer and said former employers employees, not a hatred of an entire nation, which I absolutely do not think Gatland has in him.

Again, I think its fair that there's a shootout between Biggar and Farrell, but if one of them goes down someone has to come into a test 23, so would you rather 1 cap Smith who plays a different style of game and is a complete unknown quantity or Sexton in there? I know you've said should injury to Faz of Biggar happen Sexton would likely be called up and jettisoned in ahead of Smith, but why not have the guy more likely to play a test in camp right now, rather than...... I guess developing Marcus Smith? Why is that now a function of the Lions? The big issue I take with Gatland's comments around Sexton are that the reasons given, aka durablity do not hold water now with only 5 games to play, in which Sexton is likely to feature sparingly anyway. Meanwhile AWJ is likely to be brought back in after a shoulder dislocation which can have a pretty high re injury risk for 12 weeks after the initial incident. I am not trying to infer that AWJ will be let back on the tour if not fully fit, but Sexton who is currently fit being counted out for durability issues stinks to high heaven for me.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Its almost hilarious watching (most) England fans say their player isn't ready yet because he's only played two games against Canada at international level and (most) Welsh fans somehow justify their selection because they can't take any critism towards Gats.

Firstly we don't even know if it is Gatlands decision.

Secondly, I probably would have Sexton in my original squad.

Thirdly, as I've said, no one has a problem with selection criticisms but this discussion has been around the motivation for Gatland to make these decisions. Some thinks he mainly concerned with hitting the IRFU in the pocket. I would disagree. It's literally got nothing to do about how good or poor a player Marcus Smith is.

If people think Smith is too inexperienced and shouldn't be there, fine. If people. Think he's a really exciting talent and deserves a crack, also fine.

Saying the main reason he's picked Marcus smith is because he's not Irish is not fine, imo.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

As soon as the Irish bubble burst (presumably debrief on Sunday and then everyone goes home after) a call up for Sexton is a much longer process than it would've been if he went instead of Smith

Would it?

Also can we talk about why wasn't Kruis picked?

 

[Groundhog]

AWJ doesn't have to be fully fit as we saw in 2019 when we thrashed Ireland in the GS game. AWJ done his knee ligaments in that game really early on and still played the rest of the game. Oh, and did I mention we thrashed Ireland that day with an AWJ with 1 knee.

Oh dear oh dear, well I think I'm gonna call it quits on this argument now

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would it?

They'd need to quarantine, wouldn't they?
Sexton has been in the Ireland camp's bubble, despite not playing - now they're free to go and get coughed on in the post office etc. (and aren't getting regular PCR tests)

I know that the reservers were asked to keep themselves isolated and available, but isolated at home is different to a strict team bubble, I'd say - especially with cases on the up worldwide again. I can't imagine them taking a risk on it