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2021 British & Irish Lions Squad

Truely amazing how much damage Gatland has done to the Lions brand/legacy
Go back 8-12 years and the difference in support is night/day

If it wouldn't be costing SANZAAR money in loss of interest then I'd say he was their perfect double agent
 
Truely amazing how much damage Gatland has done to the Lions brand/legacy
Go back 8-12 years and the difference in support is night/day

If it wouldn't be costing SANZAAR money in loss of interest then I'd say he was their perfect double agent
Is it? I can barely remember last week so I wouldn't know was it totally different on here in 2009? Or are you talking about real world experience?
 
But Smith isn't going to be in the match day squad. Biggar and Farrell were picked ahead of sexton and now Russell is out they've gone for a like for like 3rd choice option. As has been said, if Biggar or Faz were injured I reckon he would've brought Sexton in as there would've been a higher chance of Sexton featuring.
What if he is though? Biggar or Farrell pull up in the captain's run, he's in the 23. Also calling up players who won't make a push against your boys is ridiculously unfair and bias.

He's literally harming his own teams chances not to pick Sexton.
I don't get what you really think Gatlands motivations are then. You're saying he's not picking him because he's Irish but then saying xenophobia hasn't got anything to do with it. What is it then?
Hating the IRFU isn't xenophobic but it certainly affects his decisions. I really don't think he'd hate me if he ever met me just because I'm Irish, it'd definitely be because of what I say to him.
Of course his opinions are biased, it's an opinion. Literally everyone's opinion is biased. Your opinion is extremely biased, so is mine. Gats is no different. We're not dealing in facts here. A lot of sport is unquantifiable. We're not dealing with 2+2=4. We're dealing with biased subjective opinions it's just that you're holding onto this really odd idea that because Sexton is Irish he's not been selected whether I contend there are rugby reasons why the coaches have collectively gone for Smith as a third choice instead of Sexton.
It's not an odd idea when you look at Gatland's history and time as Lions coach. Whatever about having a pro bias, a clear anti-bias is problematic for a Lions coach.
2009 - Says his players hate the Irish, then has a general history of making similar comments against Irish rugby.
2013 - We all know what happened. Also picked a 23 year old as captain ahead of BOD and POC.
2017 - Manages to pick more Welsh players despite 4 consecutive 6n finishes behind Ireland and Ireland being the only team to beat NZ in the cycle.
2021 - This and Ryan. Let's not forget he didn't pick Ryan apparently based on one European knockout game and all of a sudden a kid who hasn't been good enough to reach that level is picked ahead. These inconsistencies don't happen against Welsh and English players.
 
It has been suggested that a few players selections don't matter as they won't be in the 23 or that Gatland is purposely picking people who won't challenge his 23. Whatever you feel about the guy can we not admit this would be the stupidest tour ever to use that logic?

We've already seen how drastically your 23 can change because of one or two positive tests. Call ups also have to isolate for a few days even if coming from another bubble. Selecting any player to tour who you don't think can start over someone you think can, would be one of the dumbest coaching decisions ever.
 
What if he is though? Biggar or Farrell pull up in the captain's run, he's in the 23. Also calling up players who won't make a push against your boys is ridiculously unfair and bias.

He's literally harming his own teams chances not to pick Sexton.

Hating the IRFU isn't xenophobic but it certainly affects his decisions. I really don't think he'd hate me if he ever met me just because I'm Irish, it'd definitely be because of what I say to him.

It's not an odd idea when you look at Gatland's history and time as Lions coach. Whatever about having a pro bias, a clear anti-bias is problematic for a Lions coach.
2009 - Says his players hate the Irish, then has a general history of making similar comments against Irish rugby.
2013 - We all know what happened. Also picked a 23 year old as captain ahead of BOD and POC.
2017 - Manages to pick more Welsh players despite 4 consecutive 6n finishes behind Ireland and Ireland being the only team to beat NZ in the cycle.
2021 - This and Ryan. Let's not forget he didn't pick Ryan apparently based on one European knockout game and all of a sudden a kid who hasn't been good enough to reach that level is picked ahead. These inconsistencies don't happen against Welsh and English players.
Mate, I don't want to argue with you (but I will) as I like Sexton and agree with a lot of what you have to say but I do disagree with the place you're coming from, or more accurately disagreeing with the place where you think Gatland is coming from.

It seems to me that your argument doesn't really stack up. He's picked Sexton on previous tours and he's picked loads of Irish lads that he clearly rates on this tour. Where's his hatred of the IRFU now? Your counter to that point is "he's not totally stupid and wants to win" but that doesn't really make sense with the rest of your argument imo. Which is it, does his hatred of the IRFU dictate his decisions or is he not totally stupid and wants to win? You can't have it both ways. Clearly one is more important to him than the other, surely? I don't get why he would punish individual Irish players so much if it's the governing body he has an issue with. Kind of sounds like xenophobia to me. He's selcted loads of Irish lads even ones like Porter over Francis which I would imagine is because he rates Porter more than Francis even though he knows Francis more and has performed well against SA in previous matches.

He clearly doesn't rate Ryan as much as a lot of other people. Again, you can think that's because he's Irish but I prefer to think that he has his views on what he wants from a player in any particular match and makes the decision based on that. I reckon if Ryan weighed 2 more stone he'd be on tour. It's probably nothing more than that imo. I wouldn't take anything he says in a press conference at face value. He's not going to come out and say "I think Ryan is overrated" if that's what he feels. Managers have to lie quite a lot and keep their true feeling hidden in press conferences and stuff.

Sexton has just turned 30 ******* 6 FFS I mean, no one is talking about that and while he did have a good 6N and played some games he's not exactly mr durable, put that together with his age and lack of pace and it's reasonable to think that him and the other coaches wanted that point of difference (pace) with a 3rd option. If Biggar gets injured tomorrow and is ruled out I think Sexton flies out and overtakes Smith in the pecking order anyway but if Bigs or Farrel do get injured and he calls up Ford over Sexton even then I wouldn't say it's coz he's Irish it's just that he doesn't rate him that much anymore. He is 36 after all.
 
AWJ is 35, plays a much more attritional position, and just got a serious shoulder injury - people are chomping at the bit for him to get back there
Yet a fully fit Sexton is a bridge too far?
 
AWJ is 35, plays a much more attritional position, and just got a serious shoulder injury - people are chomping at the bit for him to get back there
Yet a fully fit Sexton is a bridge too far?
Traditionally the second row is a area that players play longer in. In fact,'it's a position,
Much like the front row where you don't reach your peak until your 30s. Fly half is a bit different. I'd also say AWJ injury record is generally very good whereas Sextons isn't.
 
Truely amazing how much damage Gatland has done to the Lions brand/legacy
Go back 8-12 years and the difference in support is night/day

If it wouldn't be costing SANZAAR money in loss of interest then I'd say he was their perfect double agent
Any further clarification on this? I take it you remember 2009 and before a lot better than me.
 
People are actually arguing that Gatland is right not to make the best selection available for the LIONS!! This isn't some Summer tour of North America, its supposed to be the "Everest" of pro rugby. Smith isn't going to get developed here. No offense to him, he's really talented, but that's not what the Lions is for. Gatland's logic for picking Smith is simply put, bullshit. Why do we need a like for like replacement for another player that apparently wasn't going to make test 23s?
As with Ryan, he doesn't want to have to climb down from needless statements he made regarding Sexton on top of his barely disguised loathing of Irish rugby. The argument that Smith's selection is ok because he won't actually get near the test 23....... then why pick him? You can't argue that Irish captain and player of the year Sexton wouldn't at very least be pushing the other 10s extremely hard to perform in training. Picking a weaker player and justifying it because 0 chance of making the test 23 is the same logic used for the farcical geography call ups last tour and it was bullshit then too!
 
Let's not forget Gatland only picked Hill to ensure AWJ got a place in the test 23 and only picked Simmonds so that Falateu would get the 8 shirt.*

*this may be a wind up
 
Honestly have no idea why we can't call blatantly **** call ups as **** callups.

All players should be pushing for test places, Sexton would, Russell could, Smith won't. And that really should be the end of it and its not the first time Gatland has made shocking decisions like this.
 
People are actually arguing that Gatland is right not to make the best selection available for the LIONS!! This isn't some Summer tour of North America, its supposed to be the "Everest" of pro rugby. Smith isn't going to get developed here. No offense to him, he's really talented, but that's not what the Lions is for. Gatland's logic for picking Smith is simply put, bullshit. Why do we need a like for like replacement for another player that apparently wasn't going to make test 23s?
As with Ryan, he doesn't want to have to climb down from needless statements he made regarding Sexton on top of his barely disguised loathing of Irish rugby. The argument that Smith's selection is ok because he won't actually get near the test 23....... then why pick him? You can't argue that Irish captain and player of the year Sexton wouldn't at very least be pushing the other 10s extremely hard to perform in training. Picking a weaker player and justifying it because 0 chance of making the test 23 is the same logic used for the farcical geography call ups last tour and it was bullshit then too!
But they clearly think, in some areas, pace, durability, taking the ball to the line etc etc, he isn't inferior at all to Sexton. They might think Sexton is a better overall player but not in those areas he isn't so they want someone like that. Either way I don't think "**** the Irish scum" is anywhere in his thoughts but maybe I'm the crazy one.
 
Honestly have no idea why we can't call blatantly **** call ups as **** callups.

All players should be pushing for test places, Sexton would, Russell could, Smith won't. And that really should be the end of it and its not the first time Gatland has made shocking decisions like this.
I've got no problem with people calling out what they think are **** call ups. I've had numerous problems with a variety of Gatlands decisions over the years. I'm challenging the motivations behind these decisions. That's all. I don't think he's xenophobic and hates the Irish so much it influences his decisions.
 
But they clearly think, in some areas, pace durability, taking the ball to the line etc etc, he isn't inferior at all to Sexton. They might think Sexton is a better overall player but non those areas he isn't so they want someone like that. Either way I don't think "**** the Irish scum" is anywhere in his thoughts but maybe I'm the crazy one.
Again, if you pick players with a view to the test matches, as you should, Sexton is out and out a better choice, because he has played Test rugby before, has been highly successful at every level, has played and won against South Africa before and achieved everything a 10 can achieve in the game outside of a World Cup. Which player would you rather have in a Test against SA, because that's literally the only argument that has merit for me. Picking a young guy because he will play a game like Russell in the dirt trackers? Who cares? Surely bringing in a player that more resembles your likely test starters has more merit anyway as that's how we will look to play in meaningful fixtures.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Xenophobia, its been clarified several times we don't think he hates Irish people. We think he has an extremely contentious and well documented relationship with the IRFU on the back of being (unfairly imo) fired, which colors his view on Irish rugby as a whole and his selection of Irish players. I also think its personal for him and Sexton.
 
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Any further clarification on this? I take it you remember 2009 and before a lot better than me.
Just a general feeling, both on here and just in online rugby communities in general
You could put the general lack of hype going into the tour down to COVID, but there was never so much disinterest, tribalism and anger in any previous year

I said at the time that picking Gatland for a third time was a big mistake, not just because I don't rate him to get the best out of the players available but because it's making the Lions too synonymous with a very unpopular figure in world rugby
 
Again, if you pick players with a view to the test matches, as you should, Sexton is out and out a better choice, because he has played Test rugby before, has been highly successful at every level, has played and won against South Africa before and achieved everything a 10 can achieve in the game outside of a World Cup. Which player would you rather have in a Test against SA, because that's literally the only argument that has merit for me. Picking a young guy because he will play a game like Russell in the dirt trackers? Who cares? Surely bringing in a player that more resembles your likely test starters has more merit anyway as that's how we will look to play in meaningful fixtures.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Xenophobia, its been clarified several times we don't think he hates Irish people. We think he has an extremely contentious and well documented relationship with the IRFU on the back of being (unfairly imo) fired, which colors his view on Irish rugby as a whole and his selection of Irish players. I also think its personal for him and Sexton.
I say it's xenophobic because you and other Irish lads are saying he isnt picking Sexton because he's Irish. It's that simple. You can say oh he doesn't hate the Irish it's the IRFU he hates but according to you and others he is persecuting Sexton for that hatred and Sexton is Irish so that to me is xenophobic. We obviously work on different definitions of discrimination due to nationality. I'm not aware of any personal beef he has with sexton but if you have any info I'm not aware of my opinion could be swayed as I've always said you never know what goes on behind closed doors but this, again, could be personal and nothing to do with his nationality.

I think he knows it's a straight shootout between Biggar and Farrel for starting 10 That's a decision he has made. Russell went due to Townsend and I'm sure there was an element of "if he impressed me on tour he's got a chance" kind of thing and the same
Might apply to Smith it's a bit late in the tour for him.

As I've said, if Bigs or Farrel go down tomorrow not only do I think Sexton gets the call I think he overtakes Smith in the pecking order and we'd probably see him involved in the first test but we'll never know (unless Bigs or Faz get injured tomorrow)
 
Just a general feeling, both on here and just in online rugby communities in general
You could put the general lack of hype going into the tour down to COVID, but there was never so much disinterest, tribalism and anger in any previous year

I said at the time that picking Gatland for a third time was a big mistake, not just because I don't rate him to get the best out of the players available but because it's making the Lions too synonymous with a very unpopular figure in world rugby
Fair enough. I could believe it as society has changed a lot since then and everyone on line seems so toxic.
 
As I've said, if Bigs or Farrel go down tomorrow not only do I think Sexton gets the call I think he overtakes Smith in the pecking order and we'd probably see him involved in the first test but we'll never know (unless Bigs or Faz get injured tomorrow)
Here's the issue though if they go down tomorrow fine but what about the day of the test? What if both test positive for COVID and its not out of the realms of possibility? With Russell we would of tested hands even if it does blow up the game plan (its why I never expected him or Ford to make the plane) . With Smith we have a complete unknown quantity who's completely untested thats just a ridiculous decision however which way you cut it especially when the other option is Sexton who absolutely will fit into the system and is a known quality player.

Tin-foil hat time I wonder if its punishment for taking over the backs in NZ which I suspect was more him than Farrell.
 
I don't even think Smith was Gatland's decision. It seems a more Townsend decision than Gatland. We've already seen with Gatland he listens to his coaches with selections. Take Corbisiero in 2013, is was Rowntree who wanted him and not Gatland, that's on record. He ended up starting tests too because Rowntree liked him
 
But they clearly think, in some areas, pace, durability, taking the ball to the line etc etc, he isn't inferior at all to Sexton. They might think Sexton is a better overall player but not in those areas he isn't so they want someone like that. Either way I don't think "**** the Irish scum" is anywhere in his thoughts but maybe I'm the crazy one.
This is a straw man. I see it in your most recent post too. Not picking Irish players harms the IRFU financially. Your only arguments here are that he has picked Irish players, well of course he has, Ireland have been one of the top sides in all of his three cycles often with the best record against SH sides and higher performing clubs than Scotland and Wales, and then your strange xenophobic red herring.

At what point do we look at a clear and growing trend of unfavorable selections against Irish players and call a spade a spade. Like one of your counters is literally that Andrew Porter was picked over Thomas Francis, do you think you could find anyone who honestly thinks the latter is better?

To reiterate, this is a man who publicly said his players hate the Irish players, a statement which wasn't echoed by his players.
 
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