2021 British & Irish Lions Squad

[ncurd]

Probably Johnson, the squad is too ****** that any one player could fill a gap and fix it but a captain who's a guaranteed starter would go a long way. Same would work with POC too.

Just imagine an "in their prime" second row of Johnson/POC.

TBH as much as I'd like either of those they'd be a luxury the 2nd row stock is pretty good outside of AWJ. Dawson would make a dramatic change at scrum half and throughout the team.

 

[Welsh Exile]

the 2nd row stock is pretty good outside of AWJ.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Scott Gibbs playing for the lions

Why Matt Dawson? I have nothing against him, if anything I was a fan, but he was at best the fifth best scrum half in the world in 1997. He would be useful in the current squad though.

I had the good fortune of watching Gibbs for a season in 98/99. Not always at his rampaging 97 Lions form, but impressive all the same. I wish I hadn't rewatched the clip of him vs Du Randt though, in my memory he ran him over rather than deflected him.

I'd pick Gethin Jenkins from 2009 to sort out the loose head problem and BOD, 'cos he's BOD and there's a dearth of decent 13s in the squad. From 2009, I'd take Keith Wood, not that hooker is a massive weakness, but he was that good as a player / leader, plus, who else will preside over the kangaroo court? I'd be tempted to take Richard Hill from 1997 on the same basis (being good, not being good at comedy drinking).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If it was a case of a combined team from the three squads few enough from this year make it.

Smith, Wood, Furlong, Johnson, POC, Hill, Back, Heaslip, Dawson, Jones, Watson, Guscott, BOD, Bowe, Kearney

I'd probably pick Ferris, Curry, Heaslip myself because I'd jizz everywhere. Curry v Back is an interesting debate though.

That looks a bit Irish heavy but 09 was the peak of Ireland's most talented starting XV ever so I don't think it's massively massively biased considering 97 and 09 were a bit before the peaks for England and Wales.

I'd also have Sexton if he was picked and anyone who replies in disagreement actually smells worse than Smellis Genge.

 

[AlRums]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Scott Gibbs playing for the lions

Gregor

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That looks a bit Irish heavy but 09 was the peak of Ireland's most talented starting XV ever so I don't think it's massively massively biased considering 97 and 09 were a bit before the peaks for England and Wales.

Really was the peak of Irish rugby IMO especially that draw against a Aus.

 

[Jakedood]

Why Matt Dawson? I have nothing against him, if anything I was a fan, but he was at best the fifth best scrum half in the world in 1997. He would be useful in the current squad though.


I'd pick Gethin Jenkins from 2009 to sort out the loose head problem and BOD, 'cos he's BOD and there's a dearth of decent 13s in the squad. From 2009, I'd take Keith Wood, not that hooker is a massive weakness, but he was that good as a player / leader, plus, who else will preside over the kangaroo court? I'd be tempted to take Richard Hill from 1997 on the same basis (being good, not being good at comedy drinking).

Haha well said

I dunno, Dawson seemed to be the epitome of a SH for me, high tempo, off the cuff player, especially well suited to his time

Looking back, you can see a lot of the current player builds wouldnt survive in those 1997 games, or even maybe 2009. The speed of scrummages being set, the pick and gos at the back of rucks, asking a defense to set in time would be a nightmare, and you simply couldnt afford to be 22 stone for 80 minutes at such a brutal pace

 

[Welsh Exile]

Haha well said

I dunno, Dawson seemed to be the epitome of a SH for me, high tempo, off the cuff player, especially well suited to his time

Looking back, you can see a lot of the current player builds wouldnt survive in those 1997 games, or even maybe 2009. The speed of scrummages being set, the pick and gos at the back of rucks, asking a defense to set in time would be a nightmare, and you simply couldnt afford to be 22 stone for 80 minutes at such a brutal pace

I look at it the other way, I think we all romanticise past players from different eras when in all likelihood they're not as good as their present day counterparts.

And it's not even just physical/size thing. If you look at the 2nd rows in 97, for example, skill levels are not as high as they are today. Try saying that Martin Johnson wasn't as good as 9 out of 10 locks today though and you'll get crucified.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I look at it the other way, I think we all romanticise past players from different eras when in all likelihood they're not as good as their present day counterparts.

And it's not even just physical/size thing. If you look at the 2nd rows in 97, for example, skill levels are not as high as they are today. Try saying that Martin Johnson wasn't as good as 9 out of 10 locks today though and you'll get crucified.

But that's the problem comparing players from different eras: it like comparing apples and oranges. They can only be judged against their counterparts from their era.

 

[Welsh Exile]

But that's the problem comparing players from different eras: it like comparing apples and oranges. They can only be judged against their counterparts from their era.

Yeah I completely agree. I'm just saying, if we were to compare, I dunno, AWJ and Martin Johnson, it wouldn't even be a contest as to who is the fitter, stronger, more skill full and better all round player is.

*runs for cover*

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yeah I completely agree. I'm just saying, if we were to compare, I dunno, AWJ and Martin Johnson, it wouldn't even be a contest as to who is the fitter, stronger, more skill full and better all round player is.

*runs for cover*

The biggest difference between MJ and AWJ is this:

 

[Welsh Exile]

The biggest difference between MJ and AWJ is this:

View attachment 10959View attachment 10960

I didn't see that coming.

Can't argue with the facts, though.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I didn't see that coming.

Can't argue with the facts, though.

same can be said of AWJ and Siya Kolisi...

 

[ncurd]

Haha well said

I dunno, Dawson seemed to be the epitome of a SH for me, high tempo, off the cuff player, especially well suited to his time

Looking back, you can see a lot of the current player builds wouldnt survive in those 1997 games, or even maybe 2009. The speed of scrummages being set, the pick and gos at the back of rucks, asking a defense to set in time would be a nightmare, and you simply couldnt afford to be 22 stone for 80 minutes at such a brutal pace

SH has to be the one position that hasn't changed much since that time except the ability to box kick has been increased so its not a skill I want to see more of. Either way Dawson has the skillset we've been desperate for consistency in which we only see from an in form Youngs/Care from an English perspective.

I'm unsure how much 2nd row has really changed at least from the Johnson mould sure your want a more athletic guy in one position but a hulking brute and great at lineout doesn't feel like a bad choice.

Front row and back row have moved along a fair whack in terms of all around ability. Fly-half were talking pre-Wilkinson so skillset changed a fair bit. Wings/Center/Fullback I don't think much has changed except you probably want one crashball center, a Greenwood or Robinson would still be looking in I think.

 

[Welsh Exile]

same can be said of AWJ and Siya Kolisi...

True, or any other player who's won a WC.

 

[big ginger 8]

Lineouts and rucks have changed massively since 97 so that would have an impact and every player has to be comfortable on the ball now.

Based in what I've seen wings and centres roles have changed a decent bit they're expected to actually hit rucks now and wingers have to play with a much higher workrate in general.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Lineouts and rucks have changed massively since 97 so that would have an impact and every player has to be comfortable on the ball now.

Based in what I've seen wings and centres roles have changed a decent bit they're expected to actually hit rucks now and wingers have to play with a much higher workrate in general.

And scrums.

 

[Welsh Exile]

While scrums were a bit of a non entity back in the day I do love how they could go from the ref blowing his whistle to the SH passing it out of the scrum in about 15 seconds. Bish bash bosh.

 

[ncurd]

True, or any other player who's won a WC.

Yeah but how many 'true' legends of captaincy haven't actually won a world cup? Johnson/McCaw/Pienaar all done it (and more).

Lineouts and rucks have changed massively since 97 so that would have an impact and every player has to be comfortable on the ball now.

Based in what I've seen wings and centres roles have changed a decent bit they're expected to actually hit rucks now and wingers have to play with a much higher workrate in general.

I think a better way to phrase the thinking would the player of old not been able to adapt? Hill/Back would probably struggle the skillset asked of a flanker is much more. Lineouts have changed but its hard to see how a canny operator of the past wouldn't still be pretty good. Same with what is required of the Wings/Centers at the rucks they are getting involved but you wouldn't say any are really great at it so the ones of old could of probably adapted.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah but how many 'true' legends of captaincy haven't actually won a world cup? Johnson/McCaw/Pienaar all done it (and more).

I think a better way to phrase the thinking would the player of old not been able to adapt? Hill/Back would probably struggle the skillset asked of a flanker is much more. Lineouts have changed but its hard to see how a canny operator of the past wouldn't still be pretty good. Same with what is required of the Wings/Centers at the rucks they are getting involved but you wouldn't say any are really great at it so the ones of old could of probably adapted.

I dunno. There's most be loads of genuine world class legends who have never won a World Cup, though. Captain or not. Legendary NZ players like Lomu and others.