2021 British & Irish Lions Squad

[Bada-Bing!]

Has World Rugby had an elite panel since after the World Cup??

If we look at WR's own website, it doesn't appear so, so we don't really know which referees qualify to be the referees for this tour.

But by elimination, the nationality of the referees will be France, Australia, New Zealand and perhaps Argentina. The question will be more if the referees selected, will be up for the task...

Don't know but there is a so called hierarchy of refs in WR's mind - according to Kaplan. I think I posted a list up during the RWC of who those refs are in WR's mind including Poite on the second rung below Garces, Owens and Barnes. As Owens is retired and wouldn't have qualified anyway ditto for Barnes, then if Garces is still reffing?!

Then he'd likely be one of the test refs and seeing as Poite reffed two tests in the previous Lions tours it would likely he'd test at least one. Gauzere being the other if Garces is no longer available.


Are there any top level Argentinian refs? Even Italian? I haven't followed too many top class club games and just see the refs from the internationals.

I think there will be at least two NH refs and one SH ref for the tests if previous two Lions tours are anything to go by.

But not just up to scratch as you say it's also that NH refs interpret rules differently to SH refs. So not only do you have to take the deemed bias if a British ref or SA ref were to be picked but also the interpretation aspect. Is that why SA fans don't like Poite?

As Welsh exile pointed out Gardner from Australia would appear to be the logical choice for the SH ref. Don't know if too many Kiwi refs now who would graduate to the top bracket.

 

[ncurd]

I don't really have any concerns about any of the refs being up for the task. Should be a lot more straight forward than any other lions tour in history as there will be, more than likely, no crowds and we know how hostile and intimidating a packed stadium full of Boks supporters can be.

So with empty, or mostly empty, stadiums the refs can focus on the game. No doubt mistakes will be made but I don't have worries about them dealing with the occasion. Whoever they select, while might not have any lions experience, will have experience of referring many high level international games.

It's a advantage for the Lions imo. Those 50-50 calls that more often than not go to the home side might end up going our way now, perhaps. Having said that, I'd much rather have a packed stadium even if it meant all the fans were Boks and we lost that advantage. Just not the same without the fans. Fingers crossed they can get some in.

And yet in an empty Welsh stadium Gaüzère still managed two almighty cock ups.

Honestly its a Lions tour I say get the best refs regardless of nationality, I don't think they are playing for anything else other than pride as its not a tournament and I don't think it effects ranking points.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And yet in an empty Welsh stadium Gaüzère still managed two almighty cock ups.

Honestly its a Lions tour I say get the best refs regardless of nationality, I don't think they are playing for anything else other than pride as its not a tournament and I don't think it effects ranking points.

Well technically it was more the TMO rather than Gauzere for the knock on try but I take your point.

Mistakes will be made but I think most would agree that one of the, if not the main advantage, to playing at home is home crowds influencing referees. That doesn't mean to say they can't or won't make mistakes without any crowds at all but generally, as a rule, I think no crowds wil benefit us more than not. I think we saw a rise in away wins during Covid though haven't fact checked that so could be wrong.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

And yet in an empty Welsh stadium Gaüzère still managed two almighty cock ups.

Honestly its a Lions tour I say get the best refs regardless of nationality, I don't think they are playing for anything else other than pride as its not a tournament and I don't think it effects ranking points.

Yes, you make a good point but I still wouldn't feel confident or comfortable with Peyper reffing one of the tests.

 

[ncurd]

Yes, you make a good point but I still wouldn't feel confident or comfortable with Peyper reffing one of the tests.

Its the risk we take for getting Barnes for one match!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Its the risk we take for getting Barnes for one match!

Drop the Irish for that one and you'll be flying!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah, I'd be more than happy with young Angus as the SH ref. I recall shouting at him a few times but on the whole I think he's pretty decent. He lets the game flow and doesn't have the whistle permanently in his mouth ready to blow like Wayne.

 

[ncurd]

Barnes refs some perfectly fine games fans only think he has his whistle is the mouth because he doesn't allow silly buggers at breakdown. You actually get fast flowing and legal game if you actually play to him because nobody is slowing the ball down.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Barnes refs some perfectly fine games fans only think he has his whistle is the mouth because he doesn't allow silly buggers at breakdown. You actually get fast flowing and legal game if you actually play to him because nobody is slowing the ball down.

He's a good ref and I have definitely warmed to him more over the years but I also think he's not as anal as he was when he was starting out I definitely think his communication has improved a lot too. Ultimately, it's just a style thing that I personally don't really like about him but he's one of the best out there.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And, tbf, he gave us one of the funniest moments in rugby. Fair play to him, he took the hit well.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Don't know but there is a so called hierarchy of refs in WR's mind - according to Kaplan. I think I posted a list up during the RWC of who those refs are in WR's mind including Poite on the second rung below Garces, Owens and Barnes. As Owens is retired and wouldn't have qualified anyway ditto for Barnes, then if Garces is still reffing?!

Then he'd likely be one of the test refs and seeing as Poite reffed two tests in the previous Lions tours it would likely he'd test at least one. Gauzere being the other if Garces is no longer available.


Are there any top level Argentinian refs? Even Italian? I haven't followed too many top class club games and just see the refs from the internationals.

I think there will be at least two NH refs and one SH ref for the tests if previous two Lions tours are anything to go by.

But not just up to scratch as you say it's also that NH refs interpret rules differently to SH refs. So not only do you have to take the deemed bias if a British ref or SA ref were to be picked but also the interpretation aspect. Is that why SA fans don't like Poite?

As Welsh exile pointed out Gardner from Australia would appear to be the logical choice for the SH ref. Don't know if too many Kiwi refs now who would graduate to the top bracket.

The hierarchy are the referee panels, which starts at age group levels, moves up to club/union, then the next panel is 7's and test match status and the top level is the Elite panel.

But the Elite panel hasn't been modified or updated since the RWC2019, and that's mostly due to the tests that was played during 2020/21, were regional tests/series, and there wasn't a need for the Elite panel to be used.

As for top level Argentina referees, there is only 1, and that is Frederico Anselmi, who was an AR at the World Cup.

If the referees panel from the World Cup is still the same, bar the referees that retired, then the only referees that qualify to officiate the tour are:

Romain Poite (France)
Pascal Gauzere (France)
Mathieu Raynal (France)
Ben O'Keefe (New Zealand)
Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Nic Berry (Australia)
Angus Gardner (Australia)

Brenden Pickerill (New Zealand) and Shuhei Kubo (Japan), could also, along with Anselmi be used as Assistant referees.

 

[Jakedood]

Would be interesting... the reason they dont isnt because of the referees being biased, but to stop there being any argument that bias was involved. Like if Nigel reffed Wales, I dont think he'd have been biased, but then also some refs might go the other way to prove they arent in fact biased at all. Its just a shitstorm in the making, and so left out altogether, but I think the best thing is a ref who knows what he's about, understands rugby (in that accidental things maybe arnet punished as harshly, Nigel was great with this) and consider their role to make the game as free flowing as possible

So if they were a home ref, it would need to be a top one who you know doesnt easily bow to pressure. Barnes would be in that category for me, as probably the premier ref in WR eight now (he has also as Welsh exile said become better at letting the game flow and his comms are excellent with the players)

Jaco Peyper wouldnt quite be in that bracket for me, he's a good ref but I've seen a few too many games where he is in fact over whistling. Its actually a much bigger issue in geenral for newer refs trying to break in than the older core. Also in Jaco's plus side, he reffed England v France in Six nations this year and did a real standout job

If you had a team of Barnes, Peyper and Poite/Gardner, cycling around between two Touchie Appts and a Ref Appt in the 3 tests, I dont think too many would argue

Italian refs, there's a boy called Marius Mitrea who's done some Pro14 work, been times where I've thought he's catered for an excellent game, and other times you have your head in your hands, seems a real 50/50 call

TRF_heineken said:
Brenden Pickerill (New Zealand) and Shuhei Kubo (Japan), could also, along with Anselmi be used as Assistant referees.

I think what they usually do for Lions tours is have 3 referees, and cycle around for to AR and one Ref appointment among the three tests? Could be wrong, but from memory thats what I thought

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yes, the 3 test match refs alternate between touch line and main ref on pitch. Well they did in the last two Lions tests.

To be a top class international rugby ref and how fast the game is moving. Don't envy their job one bit.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Barnes refs some perfectly fine games fans only think he has his whistle is the mouth because he doesn't allow silly buggers at breakdown. You actually get fast flowing and legal game if you actually play to him because nobody is slowing the ball down.

Agreed but he's saved most his stinkers for Ireland and came out with some dodgy comments that got him taken out of contention to ref any of our 2015 RWC games if I remember correctly, probably off the back of his stinker in Cardiff that year.

 

[Jakedood]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Scott Gibbs playing for the lions

 

[Welsh Exile]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Jono Gibbes playing for the lions

I think the North injury has hurt us and we weren't super strong in the center anyway so it's hard to see past BOD. Gibbs in 97 though.

 

[Welsh Exile]

 

[Bada-Bing!]

From 1997:

Smith
Wood
Johnson
Dallaglio
Hill
Rodber

Dawson
Gibbs
Guscott
Jenkins

Because they were test match animals.

To be fair As good as that 1997 team/squad were if SA had had a genuine kicker in 1997 they would have won. Jenkins saved/won that pivotal second test and of course JG's drop goal.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Scott Gibbs playing for the lions

Ronan O'Gara

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Random question lads... if you could bring in any player from 1997/2009 squads, who would you add to this group of players and why?

I wish I was old enough to be watching Matt Dawson and Scott Gibbs playing for the lions

Probably Johnson, the squad is too ****** that any one player could fill a gap and fix it but a captain who's a guaranteed starter would go a long way. Same would work with POC too.