[2019 Six Nations] England vs France (10/02/2019)

[Mr Ruggleby]

To be honest I like it when England are a bit spiky and petulant. Remember Martin Johnson being a lot worse than anything Kyle Sinkler has every been and he was loved for it. Like a bit of biff and its an alpha male game at that level

Being spikey and essentially "hard" is different from being petulant, Johnson was the former but not the latter. I like aggression and physicality, I like a bit of ****le on the ground and getting under the opposition skin.

To your point I think Sinckler is the opposite of an Alpha male, he can't control his temper, he's stupid and doesn't know when to rein it in and doesn't seem to actually have any respect for the officials or the game. According to other players - including club mate Marler - he is also a faux hard man and can't actually back it up.

Personally, I find that irritating and an unwelcome move towards an almost football-esque attitude. Keep the ****le and hostility, lose the stupidity and disrespect of the game.

 

[McTallshort]

Being spikey and essentially "hard" is different from being petulant, Johnson was the former but not the latter. I like aggression and physicality, I like a bit of ****le on the ground and getting under the opposition skin.

To your point I think Sinckler is the opposite of an Alpha male, he can't control his temper, he's stupid and doesn't know when to rein it in and doesn't seem to actually have any respect for the officials or the game. According to other players - including club mate Marler - he is also a faux hard man and can't actually back it up.

Personally, I find that irritating and an unwelcome move towards an almost football-esque attitude. Keep the ****le and hostility, lose the stupidity and disrespect of the game.

You obviously never watched Martin Johnson play if you think he respected the officials or was never petulant. Sinkler is what he is, he is the player he is because of his attitude and I like him as a player.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Think your being a bit harsh, hes a front row forward who's personality makes him what he is. if he changed that just to suit a few "oh we dont like that sort of thing" types then he becomes a less effective player. No one seems to worry about POM calling him a F-u-c-k-i-n-g c-u-n-t last week but he pulls a scrum cap and all of sudden he needs to grow up/change his attitude etc etc.

I like his attitude, Ellis Genge is similar and they will hopefully propping the England scrum up for many years.

Firstly, I don't care what POM said, that's the Irish fans' concern. I was just thrilled because it showed quite how badly we'd rattled the Irish.

Secondly, calling another player a rude name doesn't get you dragged in front of the ref, doesn't get you penalised and a talking to.

Thirdly, it's not just about the slap, it's about the lack of respect to the ref. Forget moral questions about the integrity of the game, ******* off the ref is a monumentally stupid thing to do from a pure self-interest perspective.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In sinckler's defence there is a clip showing the French player slapping him on the head first - which is what sinckler was saying.
It still would have been a penalty for retaliation/making the situation escalate, but as Dick Cock once said about Genge: I'd rather have to pull my forwards away from a fight than push them into one.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If you've got edge it can be calmed down and focussed over time. If you haven't got it you can't grow it.

We need spiky abrasive characters and the more the merrier. But there are lines that can't be crossed. Johnson etc were of their time; they'd still be abrasive and aggressive today, but it would have to be in a different way.

 

[McTallshort]

Firstly, I don't care what POM said, that's the Irish fans' concern. I was just thrilled because it showed quite how badly we'd rattled the Irish.

Secondly, calling another player a rude name doesn't get you dragged in front of the ref, doesn't get you penalised and a talking to.

Thirdly, it's not just about the slap, it's about the lack of respect to the ref. Forget moral questions about the integrity of the game, ******* off the ref is a monumentally stupid thing to do from a pure self-interest perspective.

On your second point, it does get you dragged in front of a ref and you can get penalised, in Dylan Hartleys case it can end up with you being sent off if the ref thinks said comment is aimed at him.

On your third point he did actually apologise to Nigel Owens I believe after he talking too...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah, stupid ******* ***** like Sink are generally good to have*, they can make bad situations worse sure but more often than not the added aggression they bring to the game helps. They're the guys who are going to get under the oppositions skin, I don't think you'll find many opposition fans who like POM, Healy, Sink, Hines, Johnson etc... but every team needs players like that, the Lions for example!

*As long as they're forwards, backs like that are too easily distracted and nullified.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

You obviously never watched Martin Johnson play if you think he respected the officials or was never petulant. Sinkler is what he is, he is the player he is because of his attitude and I like him as a player.

Do you know what petulant means? It's not the same as just being grumpy or bad-tempered. Besides, just because I don't know who Mark Johnson is, doesn't mean I can't comment on his style of play.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kyle *Sinckler* (have you even watched him play if you can't spell his name?) is a bad player. He is in fact a very good player, I'm not even saying he should stop winding the opposition up. I'm just saying that he doesn't need to have tantrums and disrespect the referee to maintain that level of play.

Edit: also to your point on Genge, I don't think they are similar. Genge is genuinely one of the toughest blokes going, had a brutal upbringing and actually has shown a very impressive level of maturity in controlling his temper whilst still being very physical and abrasive.

 

[McTallshort]

Do you know what petulant means? It's not the same as just being grumpy or bad-tempered. Besides, just because I don't know who Mark Johnson is, doesn't mean I can't comment on his style of play.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kyle *Sinckler* (have you even watched him play if you can't spell his name?) is a bad player. He is in fact a very good player, I'm not even saying he should stop winding the opposition up. I'm just saying that he doesn't need to have tantrums and disrespect the referee to maintain that level of play.

Mark Johnson?

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Mark Johnson?

 

[McTallshort]

Do you know what petulant means? It's not the same as just being grumpy or bad-tempered. Besides, just because I don't know who Mark Johnson is, doesn't mean I can't comment on his style of play.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kyle *Sinckler* (have you even watched him play if you can't spell his name?) is a bad player. He is in fact a very good player, I'm not even saying he should stop winding the opposition up. I'm just saying that he doesn't need to have tantrums and disrespect the referee to maintain that level of play.

Edit: also to your point on Genge, I don't think they are similar. Genge is genuinely one of the toughest blokes going, had a brutal upbringing and actually has shown a very impressive level of maturity in controlling his temper whilst still being very physical and abrasive.

also if you want to see petulant...

 

[Scotty]

For anyone still confused, there is no way a grand slam winner can not win the tournament.

I can't remember the exact maths, but it doesn't matter - when bonus points were brought in, the "Grand Slam Bonus" was calculated to be exactly the amount that guaranteed that no team that had lost a game could overtake a team who won every game, even in the situation that the slam winner had picked up zero bonus points and the other team had picked up the maximum

Max 22 if team does lose a game.
Min 20 points from 5 wins and 3 BPs for a grandslam = 23

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

also if you want to see petulant...

I still don't think you know what petulance means...it's not childish to take a stand or face-up to the Hakka or refuse to give your opponent a psychological edge. In this example Johnson still walks Mary McAleese down the row and politely introduces all of his players - all he does is refuse to have his team be moved around by the operations manager. That's good leadership. What part of sinckler refusing to look the ref in the eye, hiding his face in his shirt or his constant whining about "being hit first" is comparable to the greatest English rugby captain in history making a stand on behalf of his whole team in a hostile away environment?

In case you need further reference, another good example petulance is having a joke go over your head and disliking someone's comment as a result. Have a nice rest of your Monday though x

 

[McTallshort]

I still don't think you know what petulance means...it's not childish to take a stand or face-up to the Hakka or refuse to give your opponent a psychological edge. In this example Johnson still walks Mary McAleese down the row and politely introduces all of his players - all he does is refuse to have his team be moved around by the operations manager. That's good leadership. What part of sinckler refusing to look the ref in the eye, hiding his face in his shirt or his constant whining about "being hit first" is comparable to the greatest English rugby captain in history making a stand on behalf of his whole team in a hostile away environment?

In case you need further reference, another good example petulance is having a joke go over your head and disliking someone's comment as a result. Have a nice rest of your Monday though x

Oh I got the joke it just wasnt funny and I dislike people using spelling mistakes to act like a ******** which is what you have done. You have a nice Monday too.

 

[ALJ]

Think your being a bit harsh, hes a front row forward who's personality makes him what he is. if he changed that just to suit a few "oh we dont like that sort of thing" types then he becomes a less effective player. No one seems to worry about POM calling him a F-u-c-k-i-n-g c-u-n-t last week but he pulls a scrum cap and all of sudden he needs to grow up/change his attitude etc etc.

I like his attitude, Ellis Genge is similar and they will hopefully propping the England scrum up for many years.

Me too tbh, I like a bit of spike in players especially the younger ones.

To my mind It's far easier to calm down an aggressive player than it is to get a placid one worked up.

Just think of how good Sheridan could have been with a bit more dog in him.

 

[McTallshort]

Me too tbh, I like a bit of spike in players especially the younger ones.

To my mind It's far easier to calm down an aggressive player than it is to get a placid one worked up.

Just think of how good Sheridan could have been with a bit more dog in him.

Very true. He was a strong lad who used to be just a bit to placid, although I don't think he would have helped him when this happened...

 

[Nudger]

Couple of really good wins. Particularly enjoying the obvious adherence and total team buy-in to a way of playing and strategy - especially one that optimises the character of our leading players. That being said, I am starting to get irritated by the on-field petulance of some players.

When Sarries first brought in the constant whooping and back slapping and cheering in peoples faces, it didn't sit overly well with me, even as a fan. I bottled it up and got on with it because we were winning a lot and because it genuinely did seem to give us an edge. Plus the players who were doing it did seem to also be committed, physical and honourable when it mattered (Itoje, George, Farrell - I know some may debate this).

However, much as I think he's a good player, Kyle Sinckler's actions yesterday crossed the line for me. His constant chatter and OTT screaming is annoying but ultimately forgivable, especially as some of it is quite funny. The head slap was unnecessary, could have been a yellow and could cost us against better opposition. The worst though, was the immature and disrespectful way he reacted to Nigel Owens after getting away with a stupid offence. The fact that he had a tantrum, had to be calmed down by Farrell before approaching the ref, then tried to interrupt Owens, wouldn't make eye-contact and then had to be told to look up by Farrell was reminiscent of a 6 year old being reprimanded at a parents evening, not a 25 year-old international rugby player. The lad needs to grow up and show a bit of respect for the values of a sport that is much bigger than him. If he doesn't I hope Moriarty or Wyn Jones absolutely take his head off in Cardiff (England still win though obvs).

Rant over.

I thought o'mahony was far worse last week with his back to sinks and the ref

 

[Nudger]

Being spikey and essentially "hard" is different from being petulant, Johnson was the former but not the latter. I like aggression and physicality, I like a bit of ****le on the ground and getting under the opposition skin.

To your point I think Sinckler is the opposite of an Alpha male, he can't control his temper, he's stupid and doesn't know when to rein it in and doesn't seem to actually have any respect for the officials or the game. According to other players - including club mate Marler - he is also a faux hard man and can't actually back it up.

Personally, I find that irritating and an unwelcome move towards an almost football-esque attitude. Keep the ****le and hostility, lose the stupidity and disrespect of the game.

Unfortunately your not aloud to punch people any more Johnson would be a card waiting to happen

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I thought o'mahony was far worse last week with his back to sinks and the ref

I agree that O'Mahony was also pretty pathetic and clearly lost his head. But, he's Irish, he doesn't represent our country and I don't care if he riles up the ref.

I like that Sinckler got under his skin. My issue is when he can't draw the line between gamesmanship and being a twat. It shouldn't be a hard concept for them: **** off the opposition, but don't **** off the ref. It works - ask the All Blacks...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I loved what POM did. Its been perceived as a victory for the English because of the result but in reality he wasn't taking **** from Sinkler and bought Ireland much needed time to regroup having just won a penalty and we went on to score next.