[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 1: South Africa v Argentina (19/08/2017)

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It feels like the last 4 Boks games have been very similar and near identical scores. 2016 becoming a distant memory as they have already overtaken Oz to move 4th in the rankings with this.

I'm glad Bosch's errors weren't critical. They need to treat him gently. Thankfully Jantjies had a solid game so the pressure to elevate Bosch to starter hasn't grown. Hard to see much change in the squad for the next test and continued credit should go to AC.

Pumas, I hate to say, join Italy as the second Tier 1 side to be overtaken by a Tier2. Fiji leapfrog them and move into 9th with this result. Pumas showed enough to make this interesting next weekend though.

 

[petite]

I happy with pumas. at least they tackled like men.
1rst try for arg. Landajo instead of trying to get a few meters in, he chooses to run to the flag and dive for the photo.. Sanchez then misses the convertion.
1 st try sa. he should have left the ball on the floor. he was tacked and never left the ball.
I liked Juani''s 20 minutes he looked good.
a good win for SA. great third row. solid overall.

 

[petite]

I happy with pumas. at least they tackled like men.
1rst try for arg. Landajo instead of trying to get a few meters in, he chooses to run to the flag and dive for the photo.. Sanchez then misses the convertion.
1 st try sa. he should have left the ball on the floor. he was tacked and never left the ball.
I liked Juani''s 20 minutes he looked good.
a good win for SA. great third row. solid overall.

 

[Ospervat]

At least SA got to cross the line a few times to earn the BP. Overall better from Boks compared to 2016 though don't want to read too much into the result. Think next week away will be a true test ito their perceived improvement.

 

[saulan]

At least SA got to cross the line a few times to earn the BP. Overall better from Boks compared to 2016 though don't want to read too much into the result. Think next week away will be a true test ito their perceived improvement.

No we didn't, super rugby rules. Must score three tries or more than the opposition.

 

[Horacito]

Decent match by the pumas.

I am sorry but Romain Poite is an awful referee. Today's breakdown was just dreadful to see.

Decent tackling, but bad defense when it came to it.

Our scrum is just bad right now.

Can I ask why did we try to get meters by clashing with a side at least 100kg heavier than us? Makes no sense.

 

[die_mole]

Poite seemed random and his penalties didn't seem to change player behaviour at all.

I thought the no call on the Skosan try was correct. Tackle completion was clear and obvious and even if you argue it was, Argentina had no player there to poach. Would have been a very ticky tacky call.

Screwed South Africa on that knock on.

In terms of player performance.

Landajo is insufferable.
Skosan has a nose for ball and meters.
Beast is past it, although I don't think kitshoff would be much of an improvement (his body type is 10 years too late, but he does look like he has slimmed down quite a bit.)

 

[Brigantine]

[...] 2016 becoming a distant memory as they have already overtaken Oz to move 4th in the rankings with this. [...] Pumas, I hate to say, join Italy as the second Tier 1 side to be overtaken by a Tier2. Fiji leapfrog them and move into 9th with this result. [...]

South Africa gain 0.35 RP taking them from 84.16 to 84.51. They have now fully recovered the ground they lost vs Italy in Florence (20-18) - they were at 84.49 before that match, which was also the last time they were in the top 4.

It will take the All Blacks much longer to recover from Chicago! (If it ever happens)

As for Argentina, the last time they were ranked below a tier 2 team was 2014-11-14. Japan was 9th on 75.63, Argentina 10th on 75.45. On that day, Argentina played Italy in Genoa and won 18-20, which gave them enough of a boost to stay ahead of Japan even after they beat Romania 13-18 the next day. (because Italy was 5 RP clear of Romania in those days)

Argentina retain 79.15 RP - 5.36 more than Japan and 8.15 ahead of Italy.
When Scotland was ranked below Japan, Fiji AND Samoa the first week of RWC 2015, and again below Fiji and Japan for 3 weeks during the 2016 Six Nations - No Tier 2 team had more than 77.05.
Fiji is now on 79.48 - AFAICT the only time a Tier 2 team has been higher is Samoa in 2013 in 7th on 80.50. (after beating Scotland and Italy in South Africa) Fiji currently being ranked ahead of Argentina is much more a case of Fiji rising to Tier 1 (beating Scotland), than of Argentina falling to Tier 2.

Funny how this result winds back the clock to a 20-18 match on tour to Italy... for BOTH of the teams playing today.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Boks are coming back strong, that bodes well for world rugby.
They looked pretty good as they went through the gears today.

The Pumas seem to do some really good things in a game and then fall asleep at crucial times. Hopefully they will be more attentive next week because they need a bigger performance.
They still score tries against top sides and thats a good sign.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

South Africa gain 0.35 RP taking them from 84.16 to 84.51. They have now fully recovered the ground they lost vs Italy in Florence (20-18) - they were at 84.49 before that match, which was also the last time they were in the top 4.

It will take the All Blacks much longer to recover from Chicago! (If it ever happens)

As for Argentina, the last time they were ranked below a tier 2 team was 2014-11-14. Japan was 9th on 75.63, Argentina 10th on 75.45. On that day, Argentina played Italy in Genoa and won 18-20, which gave them enough of a boost to stay ahead of Japan even after they beat Romania 13-18 the next day. (because Italy was 5 RP clear of Romania in those days)

Argentina retain 79.15 RP - 5.36 more than Japan and 8.15 ahead of Italy.
When Scotland was ranked below Japan, Fiji AND Samoa the first week of RWC 2015, and again below Fiji and Japan for 3 weeks during the 2016 Six Nations - No Tier 2 team had more than 77.05.
Fiji is now on 79.48 - AFAICT the only time a Tier 2 team has been higher is Samoa in 2013 in 7th on 80.50. (after beating Scotland and Italy in South Africa) Fiji currently being ranked ahead of Argentina is much more a case of Fiji rising to Tier 1 (beating Scotland), than of Argentina falling to Tier 2.

Funny how this result winds back the clock to a 20-18 match on tour to Italy... for BOTH of the teams playing today.

What a great post Brigantine! Your last paragraph made me feel like I'm an android in Bladerunner or stuck in a dream in Inception. Of course, Italian rugby is the centre of the universe, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Very strange to see Japan and Argentina were closer together in 2014 than they are now. It doesn't feel like that.

And on the Skosan try, some sources are blaming de la Fuente for not keeping a hold on Skosan more, so maybe I'll forgive Poite that one. That is the one rule though that I like to see favour the defence in a 50:50.

 

[FNS]

Nice to see Tuculet get rewk again when trying to frontally tackle xD. Expected result, its the same difference Lions has with Jags.

Next week i think well see a closer match up but another Books win by 10/15.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Tackle completion was clear and obvious and even if you argue it was, Argentina had no player there to poach. Would have been a very ticky tacky call.

The fact that argentina had no players to poach is irrelevant. Rules say when you are tackled and held you need to release the ball. Instead of having a penalty for us we had 7 points against.

 

[die_mole]

The fact that argentina had no players to poach is irrelevant. Rules say when you are tackled and held you need to release the ball. Instead of having a penalty for us we had 7 points against.

No it's very relevant. Infraction is immaterial so no need to call it, but I'm sure you have had more trainings in officiating than I have.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

If giving me a dislike helps you heal that fragile ego of your, please, do so more often. Happy to help.

but I'm sure you have had more trainings in officiating than I have.

And in all those trainings that made you the renouned world class referee that you are today, have you been also told to blab any lie and expect others to take your word for it?

Argentina had not one but 2 players who could have either poached, OR would have had a better shot at stopping him had he lost momentum due to releasing the ball. After that, there was a third player who couldn't reach him either.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Happy with the win, it's a good start for us. But man, this game was frustrating to watch.

First of all, Mr. Poite was again dreadful:
1. Skosan's try shouldn't have been a try, he didn't release the ball when tackled.
2. When Skosan was tackled and the tackler knocked the ball back and Serfontein caught it, should have played on
3. The Scrums. We decimated the Argentine Scrum, yet not received a single scrum penalty.
4. Rucks. This was my biggest area of frustration, the Argies repetitively played our players beyond the ruck, infringed the scrumhalf at nearly every breakdown, and took forever to roll away as the tackler. Yet not a single yellow card was issued, and very little penalties were given.

The Springboks
1. I thought our pack was great. Seems like Beast still has a bit left in the tank when it comes to scrummaging. But Coenie was outstanding! Where did he learn to scrum like that?? Certainly not the same player of a few years ago.
2. Loose trio. I liked the balance, and Kriel, Kolisi and Cassiem all showed that they can be poachers without giving up their other roles. Although I thought Cassiem was the most quiet of all our forwards.
3. Ross Cronje did okay, but as I thought, his injury flared up and now he'll miss the trip to Argentina, Jano Vermaak has already been called up in his place.
4. Elton Jantjies was very good with his goal kicking. But for some strange reason, he lacked a bit in getting his backline away, and when he went on his own, got turned over.
5. Raymond Rhule's defence remains our biggest weakness in our backline. Have a look at the tries the Argentines scored, all of them happened at Rhule's side, when other players had to come and stop the gaps when he missed the tackles or even fail to attempt to tackle.

Lastly, I don't get the Argentine gameplan, it seemed to me they went back to the plan of being disruptive and playing negatively, and hope that the opposition makes a mistake and then pounce.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If giving me a dislike helps you heal that fragile ego of your, please, do so more often. Happy to help.

And in all those trainings that made you the renouned world class referee that you are today, have you been also told to blab any lie and expect others to take your word for it?

Argentina had not one but 2 players who could have either poached, OR would have had a better shot at stopping him had he lost momentum due to releasing the ball. After that, there was a third player who couldn't reach him either.

But doesn't that pic clearly show Skosan as not being held and no ruck formed? My understanding is he can simply run on as he did. If you want to have a go at the rules I'm with you. Its silly. But as far as my understanding goes Poite actually has it right. I woulnd't put my house on it though.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I have to say I am surprised by the scoreline. Poite was his own self but we managed to finally take his.. 'style' out of the picture.

I was never concerned over Cassiem and thought he covered well and brought some of the balance in the loose trio we've been lacking.

Beast had a more impactful game. I'll gladly eat my words if he can continue in the like. Coenie same. He has a chance to make the #3 jersey his own.

I still feel Rhule isn't the player for us at 14. I think we can feel lucky he didn't get a yellow card for his interference on Landajo. Lucky for us his contact was hardly felt. Unlucky for us his contact on defence- when he decides not to backtrack and wait for others to stop his man- is hardly felt ever. Lleyds or Combrinck for me still. And I am still not convicned Coetzee is our man long term at 15. TBF though he has a low error rate which is more than can be said for most performances in green at 15 in my memory. Also not sold on Jesse Kriel but he is growing on me. Cronje and Jantjies.. good but are they a RWC winning halves pairing? probably not. But I will give credit where its due and they are the best option we have available ATM in any case. Our pack is ticking along nicely though.

 

[mdaclarke]

There is a lot of talk online (not necessarily on this forum) about the Springboks being back. The Springboks I remember won't be "back" until they win the world cup and are regularly competitive with and sometimes beating the All Blacks.

 

[Durbanite]

There is a lot of talk online (not necessarily on this forum) about the Springboks being back. The Springboks I remember won't be "back" until they win the world cup and are regularly competitive with and sometimes beating the All Blacks.

Really optimistic IMO, I wouldn't be comfortable making that statement as a bok fan off the back of 3 wins against a tired French and this win against the Pumas who, it has to be said are not at their fighting best. I will say though that this bok team have a better body language if that makes sense, they seem more energized compared to the last couple of seasons but maybe I too, am being optimistic. I think the next game will tell us a lot, the Pumas will be able to formulate a game plan to counter the boks, shore up their scrum as best they can and I'm sure will attempt to be more tactical with regards to their kicking. I don't see AC making many changes, so we'll be able to compare the performances quite nicely. Nice to see positivity about the team for once though, I think most bok fans are just feeling rewarded and upbeat after a long slump, let's hope they can keep it up

Edit to add: Everyone knows that you're not a bok until you beat the kiwis!!

 

[FNS]

We are not measure of anything. Basically this is worst version of the pumas in the last 7/8 years.

For me real test for SA will be when they play Eng/NZ/IR(maybe wales). The rest are teams below SA bit decent margin.