[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just a thought - but the bonus point system didn't make one jot of difference to the final table positions.

Or how anyone played.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm still not happy with how we performed this year because we showed what we're capable of and still lost two winnable games, but this was a great tournament.The gap closes and we'll all become closer contested because of it, but if we're not 1 or 2 in this tournament I will be disappointed.

I'm the same in a way. Guys like Marmion, J. Ryan, Scannell, Leavy and Conway showed they can do it at this level. Joe needs to realise this and trust 23.
Furlong is being used for too long and he looks very tired for bit before it.
Scannell I'd argue has outperformed Best and with Best at his age Scannell should've been introduced at 50mins in all games.

On tactics. We've learnt how vital it is for balance in that Backrow. Also Stander can do it at 8. So we genuinely have options to play horses for courses mentality in Backrow.
We kicked a lot less today and I credit that to Payne and Marmion. And it suits us. Like we still kicked when needed eg McGraths beauty. But weren't as predictable.

 

[BraddersTheDog]

Well done Ireland. Better tactics on the day, especially considering weather conditions. England seemed unwilling to compete at the breakdown and it cost us. Also a disrupted set piece, especially lineout, cost us. Deserved winners and a tenacious performance.

 

[smartcooky]

I thought Ireland choked and stifled the life out of England, who were made to look very ordinary.

Where was this Ireland team against Wales last week?

 

[Mike Rolls]

I'm still at a loss to understand how Ireland could play like that , totally stifling an England side that had looked unstoppable, yet lose to Wales and Scotland. Frankly, the closeness of teh score flattered England, who, Farrell's goal kicking apart, never really looked threatening in any way. So, in the last twelve months Ireland lose to Wales and Scotland, yet beat England and the All Blacks.How? The losses, I mean - the victories were totally deserved.
Mike

 

[The5thOfficial]

I'm still at a loss to understand how Ireland could play like that , totally stifling an England side that had looked unstoppable, yet lose to Wales and Scotland. Frankly, the closeness of teh score flattered England, who, Farrell's goal kicking apart, never really looked threatening in any way. So, in the last twelve months Ireland lose to Wales and Scotland, yet beat England and the All Blacks.How? The losses, I mean - the victories were totally deserved.
Mike

I think its called 'inconsistency'

 

[galumay]

Thank Gawd for the Irish, I dont know if we could have lived with that **** Jones being the coach that broke the AB's record - coaching the enemy to boot!! What a year for Ireland, AB's, SA. & now the Orcs.

No doubt the NH teams have closed the gulf between them and the SH sides (with the exception of the ABs.) I think not just the SH coaches, but also the number of SH players in british & euopean rugby have helped lift the standard.

It was good to see a much more competitive 6N this year, with the exception of Italy there wasnt a lot between the sides on their day.

Well done England on taking the 6N, clearly the most consistent and accurate team through the comp.

 

[corny]

I'm still at a loss to understand how Ireland could play like that , totally stifling an England side that had looked unstoppable, yet lose to Wales and Scotland. Frankly, the closeness of teh score flattered England, who, Farrell's goal kicking apart, never really looked threatening in any way. So, in the last twelve months Ireland lose to Wales and Scotland, yet beat England and the All Blacks.How? The losses, I mean - the victories were totally deserved.
Mike

I think if this 6N's has exposed anything its how players respond to adversity. Ireland don't show against Scotland>>>then put Italy to the sword>>>>Italy then come out and rattle England>>>>England take it personally and destroy Scotland. Meanwhile Wales capitulate in Edinburgh>>>>then come out and fight Ireland to a standstill>>>>Ireland then do the same thing to England. No one takes losing with grace or acceptance. Never underestimate the top two inches in sport.

Realistically there isn't much between all the teams in the 6N's (Italy excluded). Englands winning streak can't be denied or tarnished in any way but they haven't separated themselves from the chasing pack at all. Paris and Murrayfield will be tough asks for them next year just like Dublin and Cardiff were this year. By the same token Ireland will have no divine right to win in London or Paris.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good tournament. Ireland deserved their win yesterday and I think it will actually have done us a favour. With that monkey off our back I think it will be easier for Eddie to start making a few changes with an eye on the RWC. We have a few who won't make it that far and their replacements need bedding in. Here's where I reckon we are.

1. No real issues, Marler and Mako are experienced, known quantities. Genge brings something different though and needs looking at.

2. Real issues! Hartley's race is run and George hasn't blown me away. Let's be very unEnglish and have a look at the smaller skilful player in Taylor. If LCD's line out wobbles have been fixed he's got to be in the mix too.

3. Again we know what Cole can do and he won't be any better by 2019. Worrying lack of depth, but let's see Sinckler given his head in Arg, whatever side they put out will be able to scrummage.

4 & 5. Excellent though our other locks are, Kruis has been a huge miss. Perm any 2 from 4, but if everyone's on their game it's Kruis and Launch for me.

6. Hmm. Robshaw's been another massive loss without any really obvious replacements. Hopefully he can be wrapped in cotton wool for the next couple of years. Itoje in the longer term if he starts playing there for Sarries.

7. Hask has been a good servant, but time to see if the Underhill hype is warranted. I really hope it is.

8. Another Hmmm. You can't moan if Billy's in your team, but you know exactly what's coming. Hughes has the potential to be more multi faceted, while I wish Morgan had gone to Tigers rather than the Gloucester graveyard. Mercer's progress will be interesting - guess he'll be off to Georgia with the U20s over the summer.

9. Youngs & Care are both flawed, known quantities. Don't understand why we haven't looked beyond them - Robson must get a chance in Arg.

10. The RWC 10 will be Ford or Faz. Again, we know what they can both do. Faz has always been my preferred choice. Wouldn't mind seeing how Slade could cover from the bench.

11. Bring back May! Daly is a talent, but not a winger. Wing is one position where I reckon there could be a bolter, who's not really on the radar yet, Earle or Marcus Watson etc. Nowell is an excellent player, but like Daly and Slade he's more bench than first choice.

12. We need more potency. Whether that's an outright carrier in Teo or Manu or a bigger ball player like Devoto or Mallinder with more of a running game I don't know. But the Ford - Farrell axis, for all its merits, also has some obvious limitations. We can always fall back on Ford & Faz, but I reckon there's some scope for experimentation.

13. No issues. JJ's fine and Daly can fight him for the shirt.

14. See 11. Up for grabs in my book.

15. Brown is another we should say thanks and goodbye to now. Too slow, too blinkered. Watson for me.

Overall we're in pretty decent shape, but there are a few concerns. We haven't really played well and I think it's clear that Hask, Watson and the Vunipolae were rushed back before they were really ready.

 

[The5thOfficial]

I think if this 6N's has exposed anything its how players respond to adversity. Ireland don't show against Scotland>>>then put Italy to the sword>>>>Italy then come out and rattle England>>>>England take it personally and destroy Scotland. Meanwhile Wales capitulate in Edinburgh>>>>then come out and fight Ireland to a standstill>>>>Ireland then do the same thing to England. No one takes losing with grace or acceptance. Never underestimate the top two inches in sport.

Realistically there isn't much between all the teams in the 6N's (Italy excluded). Englands winning streak can't be denied or tarnished in any way but they haven't separated themselves from the chasing pack at all. Paris and Murrayfield will be tough asks for them next year just like Dublin and Cardiff were this year. By the same token Ireland will have no divine right to win in London or Paris.

Good post this!

 

[Reiser99]

I think if this 6N's has exposed anything its how players respond to adversity. Ireland don't show against Scotland>>>then put Italy to the sword>>>>Italy then come out and rattle England>>>>England take it personally and destroy Scotland. Meanwhile Wales capitulate in Edinburgh>>>>then come out and fight Ireland to a standstill>>>>Ireland then do the same thing to England. No one takes losing with grace or acceptance. Never underestimate the top two inches in sport.

Realistically there isn't much between all the teams in the 6N's (Italy excluded). Englands winning streak can't be denied or tarnished in any way but they haven't separated themselves from the chasing pack at all. Paris and Murrayfield will be tough asks for them next year just like Dublin and Cardiff were this year. By the same token Ireland will have no divine right to win in London or Paris.

I agree, as I've said elsewhere the difference between the top 5 teams has been small. England only won really because they took their chances in the first 3 games when they had them. Against Ireland, while not many because Ireland played so well, they didn't take them.

 

[ALJ]

Good tournament. Ireland deserved their win yesterday...

Overall we're in pretty decent shape, but there are a few concerns. We haven't really played well and I think it's clear that Hask, Watson and the Vunipolae were rushed back before they were really ready.

Not sure if I'm just reading your post incorrectly - you say we're in decent shape but seem to be advocating changes in 9 or 10 place out of the XV.

I just think that's an overreaction - I realise that improvements should and will be made but this is a relatively young England side and they need time to grow. I don't see that jettisoning half the side following one loss from 19 makes any sense.

let's not forget that, ignoring Italy, this tournament was won by the one side that managed an away victory.

That we got so close yesterday is credit to the England side.

Well done Ireland - a deserved victory.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not sure if I'm just reading your post incorrectly - you say we're in decent shape but seem to be advocating changes in 9 or 10 place out of the XV.

I just think that's an overreaction - I realise that improvements should and will be made but this is a relatively young England side and they need time to grow. I don't see that jettisoning half the side following one loss from 19 makes any sense.

We're in good shape in terms of having a good coach, a good mentality, depth in certain positions and the core of a team who will be competitive in 2019. We have 2 or 3 in the side who clearly won't make it that far as well as a couple of perennial conundrums in the back row balance and the midfield. I'm not advocating wholesale change, but suggesting that some other options are explored to see if there's anything better. If not we can always revert to the tried and tested.

We won the ***le, but we weren't really ahead of the pack and didn't play particularly well. Certainly aren't a threat to the ABs, so there's much work to be done. I'm sure Eddie won't leave any stone unturned.

 

[MarkyH]

Ireland deserved it! By a few points more than they got. I don't remember England being able to sustain any pressure.

While Englands defence looked ok, our intensity at the breakdown was poor, and its regularly our weakest part of the game. Haskell is normally aggressive clearing out but not so much yesterday. I think the time will come soon, and hopefully in Argentina where we really look at what we do at the breakdown, we need players with aggression but with a higher skill set in that part of the game. Hoping we get to see what Underhill can add, and Sam Jones. Would also like to see a coach really work on that part of our game...

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Strange that Eddie Jones said "It would have been nice to have been world record holders". Eddie you are mate! Just joint with NZ. Seems like in the loss, the press and even Eddie are forgetting that this is the case.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Conditions may have been a factor (as they were at Murrayfield today) but it is fair to say this entire tournament, the English backs have offered very little when playing against 15 men, or a defence where all players are playing in their actual positions. Hopefully those who think the English backs should automatically be considered the strongest unit in the tournament have been given pause for thought by their showings in recent weeks.

Did you watch the game yesterday? When given the opportunity Englands backs played some great attacking rugby. I don't see how yesterdays game tells us a great deal about the English backs except that Owen Farrell does have his off days and that both our half-backs make mistakes most games and that in particular our half-backs as we've always known are prone to moments of idiocy (thinking of Care at the moment). England had just 38% possession yesterday and little territory. The game was lost in the contact and at the gain-line. Our top carrier was Joe Marler with 16 metres. That should tell you something.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Yes, Henry - I watched the game yesterday, and indeed every minute of play by England throughout the 6 Nations before making my statement. I must have blinked during the passages of "great attacking rugby" by the English backs yesterday. Anyone that thinks a team that scores 19, 21, 36 & 9 points (against France, Wales, Italy & Ireland respectively) unquestionably has the best backline play in the tournament might need to watch some more of the other matches involving other teams.

And yes, England didn't have as much front-foot ball in this particular match as usual, but they had plenty in the others and their forwards routinely give their backs a far superior platform than that experienced by Wales and Scotland. In this tournament the English backs have done "less with more" compared to Scotland (and probably even Ireland and Wales) whenever they have faced 15 men and a defence with nobody playing out of position. Whilst overall, England clearly have the strongest team and arguably the best coaching in the tournament.

I simply consider England to be a work in progress, particularly in the backs despite some very impressive performances in 2016. I also think that their play in this tournament was a minor hiccup compared to their better play throughout 2016 and gives some hope to those of us hoping RWC 2019 isn't just a two horse race.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes, Henry - I watched the game yesterday, and indeed every minute of play by England throughout the 6 Nations before making my statement. I must have blinked during the passages of "great attacking rugby" by the English backs yesterday. Anyone that thinks a team that scores 19, 21, 36 & 9 points (against France, Wales, Italy & Ireland respectively) unquestionably has the best backline play in the tournament might need to watch some more of the other matches involving other teams.

And yes, England didn't have as much front-foot ball in this particular match as usual, but they had plenty in the others and their forwards routinely give their backs a far superior platform than that experienced by Wales and Scotland. In this tournament the English backs have done "less with more" compared to Scotland (and probably even Ireland and Wales) whenever they have faced 15 men and a defence with nobody playing out of position. Whilst overall, England clearly have the strongest team and arguably the best coaching in the tournament.

I simply consider England to be a work in progress, particularly in the backs despite some very impressive performances in 2016. I also think that their play in this tournament was a minor hiccup compared to their better play throughout 2016 and gives some hope to those of us hoping RWC 2019 isn't just a two horse race.

Most of the problem with the backs actually was with the forwards. Inability to secure our own ball and pathetic breakdown work through the entire tournament meant the backs were always facing well set up defenses, any backs would struggle with that. I'd say the biggest problem this 6N was our back row and their non-existent breakdown nouse.

 

[McTallshort]

Crap line out, crap ball retention, shaky scrum and ineffective carrying

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yes, Henry - I watched the game yesterday, and indeed every minute of play by England throughout the 6 Nations before making my statement. I must have blinked during the passages of "great attacking rugby" by the English backs yesterday. Anyone that thinks a team that scores 19, 21, 36 & 9 points (against France, Wales, Italy & Ireland respectively) unquestionably has the best backline play in the tournament might need to watch some more of the other matches involving other teams.

And yes, England didn't have as much front-foot ball in this particular match as usual, but they had plenty in the others and their forwards routinely give their backs a far superior platform than that experienced by Wales and Scotland. In this tournament the English backs have done "less with more" compared to Scotland (and probably even Ireland and Wales) whenever they have faced 15 men and a defence with nobody playing out of position. Whilst overall, England clearly have the strongest team and arguably the best coaching in the tournament.

I simply consider England to be a work in progress, particularly in the backs despite some very impressive performances in 2016. I also think that their play in this tournament was a minor hiccup compared to their better play throughout 2016 and gives some hope to those of us hoping RWC 2019 isn't just a two horse race.

You're rewriting the terms of the debates which have been going on here over the past several weeks about the relative backline performances of teams to make it sound as though all the English posters here think England have been by far the best attacking backline so far, and it's just not the case. In fact this debate is coming from an entirely different place which started I think because someone on here said that "Scotland have hands down the better backline than England". Any responses to that were not setting out to prove that England are so much better, but rather that the level of hype for the Scottish set of backs was getting a little over the top at the time and that describing them as hands down better than Englands was too much. You've come back to this point after the Ireland match with an "I told you so" but you think you're saying something we don't ourselves know.


You're just another example of someone wanted to find English arrogance where it does not exist. Just look at the fact that most of us would pick a composite lions backline with the only English being Jonathan Joseph and probably Owen Farrell (though yesterday he was poor). My back 3 would be North, Williams and Hogg, with Irish half-backs.

Part of the problem is you're summarising all stuff happening through the backs in one headline measure. There's different component parts. The attacking Scottish play that lots of people like so much is partly about the way Fin Russell attacks the line but more so about the attacking ability of the back 3 unit, usually instigated by Stuart Hogg. People want to use that to make claims about an entire backline which isn't terribly helpful. If you compare to England, our counter attack through the back three is non existent and massively inferior to that of Scotland and France, for example. Partly, this is because both these teams have better 15s and partly because Englands 15 doesn't pass, and also we have a winger who isn't a winger but is actually a 13/15. Our phased back play is better, sometimes really good, sometimes rather clunky.

This thing about 15 men by the way? Scotland from memory had 14 men for only the first try and I think we scored 6 or 7 so this is really not the triumphant point you think it is. You can't write off the way England played simply because Scotland went down to 14 for 10 minutes. And you'd like to have us believe that England have had forward dominance this whole tournament? No! We lost the contact against both France and Wales!

The overall status quo for the English backline for me is that when it works it works brilliantly because of the ball-playing skills of 10 12 and 13. But far too often we've seen rustiness, knock-ons, etc. I still think we've looked threatening putting the ball through the hands most of the time, but you have to take account of the fact that it hasn't been Englands gameplan to run the ball from all of the pitch, in contrast to other teams who want to play I their own half and get penalised.

But going back to yesterday, our lineout was crap, breakdown work poor, we weren't going forward at all...I can guarantee you that Eddie Jones' post-match post-mortem would have consisted of shouting at the forwards and halfbacks (and maybe Mike Brown) whilst giving the wingers and centres a tenner each to go and get lost in Dublin. He will not be looking at the bcckplay one bit.