[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Wales vs England (11/02/2017)

[TRF_Olyy]

Why not post this stuff in the England v France thread?

Yup,
Please try and keep the relevant discussions in the relevant threads.

 

[johnmac99]

It was not behind the scrum half, and it was nowhere near two metres behind the hindmost foot. 1 metre tops.

And yes - the ball was still emerging from the ruck.

I'm fairly confident Wood was not at all aware of the law, because he asked the ref to explain it to him.

You're making this up, like the ref did.
The only players that need to be on their feet are those who are part of the ruck. Wood was not part of the ruck.

Law 16.2(d)
All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must be on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Hughes and Serin competed at the back of the ruck for the ball after it was called out by the ref. Once he does that then the ruck is over.

16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

The ball wasn't emerging from the ruck, it had already emerged and was out of the ruck as indicated by the ref. throwing his arms wide and saying "the ball's out, no problem", as Hughes tried to pick it up.
As Hughes picked the ball up he was challenged by Serin which made Hughes drop the ball onto someone's foot and it rolled away from them and the ruck and it was at that point Wood dived on the ball to pick it up.

The referee simply got it wrong.

 

[dullonien]

Why is this being discussed in the Wales v England thread, and not in the France v England thread?

Anyway, because I haven't done one in a while, I'm going to do a head to head comparison of the sides:

Rob Evans v Joe Marler. Draw. Evans is on an upwards curve, Marler is also improved over the past 4 years.
Ken Owens v Dylan Hartley. Owens. Don't rate Hartley in the slightest. I'd consider George or LCD as better than Owens though.
Tom Francis v Dan Cole. Cole. He's a bit up and down, but Cole at least offers something in the loose.
Ball v Launchbury. Launchbury. Big fan of Launchbury, excellent all round lock.
AWJ v Lawes. AWJ. Still a world class player imo, certainly better than the inconsistent Lawes.
Warburton v Itoje. Draw. Look, Itoje is one of my favorite players atm, but that's at lock. As a flanker Warburton had the best game in a long time last week, and he catches up ground on the out of position Itoje.
Tipuric v Clifford. Tipuric. Truly class player. Regardless of how much potential Clifford has, Tips is simply outstanding (very biased here though, admittedly)
Moriarty v Hughes. Draw. Both have a lot of potential. Hughes probably has more potential as an 8, with Moriarty a better blindside, but Moriarty has a years head-start in terms of international rugby to even it back up.

Webb v Youngs. Draw. Webb the better player imo, but injuries have been too frequent. Youngs has been average/poor since looking like a world beater in the Autumn.
Ford v Biggar. Ford. Biggar not up to it in terms of attacking rugby. Ford has his weaknesses, but his attacking game is quality.
Liam Williams v Elliot Daly. Williams. Daly's been in fine form, but he's still relatively new to international rugby, Williams is a proven performer.
Scott Williams v Owen Farrell. Farrell. Close, as I think Williams offers a lot, but Farrell has been key to England's success under Jones.
Jon Davies v Joseph. Joseph. Davies sowed signs of form last week, but he's been ordinary otherwise this season. Joseph is a class act, although not at his best last week.
North v Nowell. Draw. North at his best would get the nod, but he's not. Still lethal given a chance though. Nowell is a player I really rate, great all round player.
Halfpenny v Brown. Draw. Brown better attacking fullback, Halfpenny better otherwise. If Brown was in top form I'd have him, but he's not been at his best for club or country. Halfpenny is still improving after his long lay-off.

Baldwin v George. George. Really rate George, Baldwin a little lucky to be in the Welsh squad ahead of Parry.
Smith v Mullan. Mullan. Smith is a better player than he showed last week, but Mullan is a strong scrummaging prop who's got experience (at club level at least) on his side.
Lee v Sinckler. Lee. Sinckler has got bucket loads of potential, but he's a relative rookie. Lee isn't at his best, but for the time being I'd still have him ahead of Sinckler.
Hill v Wood. Wood. Not a fan of Wood at all, but Hill hasn't shown much even at regional level.
Faletau v Haskell. Faletau. haskell has had a great year, but Faletau is truly world class, even if he's only just back from injury.
Davies v Care. Davies. Care's a good player, but Davies has a knack of scoring important try's. Struggles a little with decision making, but still just pips it.
Davies v Te'o. Draw. Both have a lot of potential, both relative rookies.
Roberts v May. May. Roberts offers little off the bench. May could prove a very dangerous bench player.

 

[Peat]

Pretty fair but misses the bigger picture, as I think head to head match ups are prone to doing. F'example - Hill, Faletau, Wood, Haskell. Don't disagree with what you've said as individuals, but who do you take out of Hill & Faletau vs Wood & Haskell? I'm a big Faletau fan but I probably take the latter because both of the latter are capable of making that international impact. I'd take AWJ over Lawes but Lawes over Ball, so again I think England are ahead on the units there.

I think England will look at the tight five and think "We attack them here". As a unit, its a lot more cohesive and experienced, with very few wobbly bits.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Rarely see a head to head that I agree with everything, but I think that's spot on Dull.
Think you're a little harsh on Hartley, I'm far from his biggest fan but he's put in some good shifts for England since becoming captain.

 

[Maverick1987]

Why is this being discussed in the Wales v England thread, and not in the France v England thread?

Anyway, because I haven't done one in a while, I'm going to do a head to head comparison of the sides:

Rob Evans v Joe Marler. Draw. Evans is on an upwards curve, Marler is also improved over the past 4 years.
Ken Owens v Dylan Hartley. Owens. Don't rate Hartley in the slightest. I'd consider George or LCD as better than Owens though.
Tom Francis v Dan Cole. Cole. He's a bit up and down, but Cole at least offers something in the loose.
Ball v Launchbury. Launchbury. Big fan of Launchbury, excellent all round lock.
AWJ v Lawes. AWJ. Still a world class player imo, certainly better than the inconsistent Lawes.
Warburton v Itoje. Draw. Look, Itoje is one of my favorite players atm, but that's at lock. As a flanker Warburton had the best game in a long time last week, and he catches up ground on the out of position Itoje.
Tipuric v Clifford. Tipuric. Truly class player. Regardless of how much potential Clifford has, Tips is simply outstanding (very biased here though, admittedly)
Moriarty v Hughes. Draw. Both have a lot of potential. Hughes probably has more potential as an 8, with Moriarty a better blindside, but Moriarty has a years head-start in terms of international rugby to even it back up.

Webb v Youngs. Draw. Webb the better player imo, but injuries have been too frequent. Youngs has been average/poor since looking like a world beater in the Autumn.
Ford v Biggar. Ford. Biggar not up to it in terms of attacking rugby. Ford has his weaknesses, but his attacking game is quality.
Liam Williams v Elliot Daly. Williams. Daly's been in fine form, but he's still relatively new to international rugby, Williams is a proven performer.
Scott Williams v Owen Farrell. Farrell. Close, as I think Williams offers a lot, but Farrell has been key to England's success under Jones.
Jon Davies v Joseph. Joseph. Davies sowed signs of form last week, but he's been ordinary otherwise this season. Joseph is a class act, although not at his best last week.
North v Nowell. Draw. North at his best would get the nod, but he's not. Still lethal given a chance though. Nowell is a player I really rate, great all round player.
Halfpenny v Brown. Draw. Brown better attacking fullback, Halfpenny better otherwise. If Brown was in top form I'd have him, but he's not been at his best for club or country. Halfpenny is still improving after his long lay-off.

Baldwin v George. George. Really rate George, Baldwin a little lucky to be in the Welsh squad ahead of Parry.
Smith v Mullan. Mullan. Smith is a better player than he showed last week, but Mullan is a strong scrummaging prop who's got experience (at club level at least) on his side.
Lee v Sinckler. Lee. Sinckler has got bucket loads of potential, but he's a relative rookie. Lee isn't at his best, but for the time being I'd still have him ahead of Sinckler.
Hill v Wood. Wood. Not a fan of Wood at all, but Hill hasn't shown much even at regional level.
Faletau v Haskell. Faletau. haskell has had a great year, but Faletau is truly world class, even if he's only just back from injury.
Davies v Care. Davies. Care's a good player, but Davies has a knack of scoring important try's. Struggles a little with decision making, but still just pips it.
Davies v Te'o. Draw. Both have a lot of potential, both relative rookies.
Roberts v May. May. Roberts offers little off the bench. May could prove a very dangerous bench player.

I'd agree with most of that tbh . Only part I'd be tempted to change was Lee vs Sinkler as a draw might put Hughes slightly ahead of Moriarty too mainly because Hughes is I his natural position . Hughes has a far higher ceiling at 8 than Moriarty imo

 

[dullonien]

Well that was boring. Obviously didn't favour enough Welsh lads to cause a debate.

Olyy. Would have said the same about Hartley before his ban, and had him ahead if Owens. But he was rubbish last week after his long lay off.

Pete, units is a better way at doing things.

I'd go:

Front row: Draw.
Second row: Draw.
Back row: Wales.
Halfbacks: England.
Centres: England.
Back three: Draw.

Bench: Draw.

Might come down to whether wales' back row have more of an impact than England's midfield. Impossible to know, on the day wales' midfield ate capable of outplaying their counterparts, and similarly England's back row are capable of outplaying Wales'.

The safe bet is on England given how we've been playing. This game could range anywhere from a bigish win for either side to an incredibly tight nail biter, depending on whether Wales show up and how much England miss their big carriers.

 

[MikeTheNative]

If Wales can disrupt the breakdown as much as the French did last week then I think they have a chance if not and the English backs get some good clean ball I can see a 7-10 point win for England.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mullan isn't what I would call a strong scrummaging prop if I'm being honest.

 

[AzaMatt]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/alex-cuthbert-set-face-england-12584289

take with a pinch of salt (as its just a rumour at the moment), but if this does happen ive really lost all faith in the welsh management. a massive kick in the teeth to steff evans who has been prevented from going back to scarlets just in case, but overlooked in place of cutherbet due to "experience". Steff Evans is leaps and bounds ahead of Cuthbert form wise and id argue is better in defence now than cuthbert has ever been.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Even with all the drivel they post, walesonline are sadly pretty accurate when it comes to team news like this. If this is true I'm not even disappointed as I always expect disappointment with a Howley team selection.

 

[Peat]

Well that was boring. Obviously didn't favour enough Welsh lads to cause a debate.

Olyy. Would have said the same about Hartley before his ban, and had him ahead if Owens. But he was rubbish last week after his long lay off.

Pete, units is a better way at doing things.

I'd go:

Front row: Draw.
Second row: Draw.
Back row: Wales.
Halfbacks: England.
Centres: England.
Back three: Draw.

Bench: Draw.

Might come down to whether wales' back row have more of an impact than England's midfield. Impossible to know, on the day wales' midfield ate capable of outplaying their counterparts, and similarly England's back row are capable of outplaying Wales'.

The safe bet is on England given how we've been playing. This game could range anywhere from a bigish win for either side to an incredibly tight nail biter, depending on whether Wales show up and how much England miss their big carriers.

Hmm. Mild disagreement forthcoming...

Front row: Draw, but I don't think it'll be a draw on the day. Either England's front row gets a scrummaging edge (which I think they can), or Wales' front row looks better in the loose, although probably not to a radical extent. Owens will probably look worse because...

Second row: England's. Definitely England's unless Ball has taken a massive leap forwards while I wasn't looking. Even if Ball was as good as the other three, I'd rather have Lawes + Launch because they're a more complimentary pairing with Lawes' lineout ability giving England a substantial edge.

Back row: Wales. Caveat being both are quite unbalanced units and that while Wales have more individual quality, they won't enjoy life if England can make it quite a tight game with bulk counting for more than pace.

Half-backs: Whichever team's pack wins. But mainly England. What's Webb's box-kicking like?

Centres: England. On paper at least. Both are more likely to produce killer moments.

Back three: Wales. Think the Welsh back three is superior in the air and for defensive positioning. Much more raw finishing power if North's genuinely okay for the game too.

Bench: England. C'mon man, you graded it as 4.5-3.5 with two of the Welsh boys lucky to be there yourself. Only guy England might wish not to bring in on is Sinckler.


Huge amount depends on Wales' confidence levels and who can turn it into what sort of game. I think England will want to keep it tight unless they see something on. Wales really need to keep the ball in play and wide I think. Wales really need to win the territorial battle and the breakdown big I think.

Not entirely sanguine about this.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Sorry guys, don't mean to kick you when you're down but if that's true...well, I'll feel a whole lot better!

 

[MikeTheNative]

We all know his defensive issues but if Wales actually give it to Cuthbert in a bit of space he's not a bad runner. Hopefully he puts in a shift akin to the 2013 game or he will cop all the stick again when it's actually others fault for picking him over an inform Evans in the first place.

 

[Goodey]

I think Cuthbert gets more stick than he deserves but this affair is so bloody ameteur

'we're delaying the announcement just so as we can be 100% sure on North's fitness'
'North is fit, he's playing on Saturday'
12 hours later
'Oh turns out North's not fit'

What were they even doing

 

[AzaMatt]

I think Cuthbert gets more stick than he deserves but this affair is so bloody ameteur

'we're delaying the announcement just so as we can be 100% sure on North's fitness'
'North is fit, he's playing on Saturday'
12 hours later
'Oh turns out North's not fit'

What were they even doing

yeah he does get alot of stick and some of it is uncalled for, but nobody can argue that he is severely out of form and has been for quite some time. i dont think any other nation would persist this long with a player

 

[Jakedood]

yeah he does get alot of stick and some of it is uncalled for, but nobody can argue that he is severely out of form and has been for quite some time. i dont think any other nation would persist this long with a player

I havent heard anything about this, is there an article or statement from Wales Rugby about it?

Also a reason for persisting so long... Jack Nowell may have been picked ahead of May as he's sturdier when it comes to taking down the big guys... however I think he's also more likely to break a cuthbert tackle, he's that much more elusive, so a confidence stricken Cuthbert would maybe rather face Jonny May than a Nowell.

Then again, maybe looking too much into things... Wales may have been hoping England would stick on Marland Yarde

 

[AzaMatt]

I havent heard anything about this, is there an article or statement from Wales Rugby about it?

Also a reason for persisting so long... Jack Nowell may have been picked ahead of May as he's sturdier when it comes to taking down the big guys... however I think he's also more likely to break a cuthbert tackle, he's that much more elusive, so a confidence stricken Cuthbert would maybe rather face Jonny May than a Nowell.

Then again, maybe looking too much into things... Wales may have been hoping England would stick on Marland Yarde

i could be wrong but i think cuthberts wing is opposite Daly rather than May/Nowell, thats if we straight swap North for cuthbert. although we may switch Cuthbert and Williams around.

 

[Peat]

Oh wait Cuthbert's playing? Okay draw on back three.

Incidentally I reckon Daly's probably the most deadly of England's back three options in this match one on one. Best combination of pace, physicality and footwork. So no pressure here on Cuthbert...

 

[AzaMatt]

Oh wait Cuthbert's playing? Okay draw on back three.

Incidentally I reckon Daly's probably the most deadly of England's back three options in this match one on one. Best combination of pace, physicality and footwork. So no pressure here on Cuthbert...

there is never any pressure on cuthbert, it doesnt matter how poor he is, he still gets into the wales camp and into the 23 regardless.