[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Wales vs England (11/02/2017)

[ThebigARena]

I certainly question the coaching, but the stats for the Ospreys speak volumes imo. Sam Davies puts people into space, Biggar does not. For the ospreys, Davies is the one calling all the shots. The ball goes back to him and he picks out the next move, be it a flat pass to a forward on the charge, or a pass out to the backline. I've never really seen Biggar controlling an attack like that. He stands deep and the scrum half.forwards make all the decisions. We lost this game because we couldn't convert pressure into points, and I've lost count at the amount of times this has happened over the past few years. Despite a lot of front foot possession, and quick ball, our back three once again saw almost no ball.

Maybe Sam Davies would have struggled today with the pressure, maybe he would have had a field day with the amount of time we spent in England's 22. There's no real way of knowing, but until something changes, we're going to continue to lose these close matches. I would always want to see an attacking player get the nod over a defensive one, especially as Davies has a great tactical kicking game to boot, another area Biggar struggles with imo.

All we hear from Howley is 'Experience'. He used it once again to justify the selection of Cuthbert. The stark reality is that other than Shane Williams and a few forwards, our best performers during Gatland and Howley's reign have been the young untested players. North, Halfpenny, Priestland, Faletau, Warbs, Roberts, Davies etc. etc. If anything most have progressively gotten worse. Problem is that Howley passed on opportunities to try new players in the Autumn, so backed himself into a corner when it came to this big pressure game v England. It was during the Autumn that Howley really bottled it.

We lost this game because we failed to convert 2 penalties imo ! and our fitness dropped dramatically in the last 10. Once again this is at club level, I am in no way discrediting the talent of sam but I don't believe for a second that biggar is the issue in relations to tries, it is the coaching imo that needs change, there's a lot of deadwood in that welsh team that needs to be cleared out eg Roberts and Cuthbert shouldn't be anywhere near the team, I am all for bringing in the younger talent for these guy but I still think Sam is just a prospect whereas biggar is a proven international class FH . I think your getting carried away with the FH position, its the other areas that need improving and fresh impetus , Its one thing being great at club level its another doing it at international, give the boy time, make him an impact player so he warms to the role, then maybe start him against the French in the last match if the tournament is lost by then...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I might watch scrum V this weekend, Wales losing mens, womens and U20 it should be a hoot

 

[ThebigARena]

I might watch scrum V this weekend, Wales losing mens, womens and U20 it should be a hoot

the latter 2 I couldn't give 2 hoots about

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I might watch scrum V this weekend, Wales losing mens, womens and U20 it should be a hoot

If it's anything like the u20s game they'll just talk about how England didn't deserve it and talk like Wales are world beaters.

 

[Raggs]

Itoje played lock, so lets drop the "Itoje needs to play back at lock" line.

Espn stats have been updated, so probably as accurate as they're going to be, Hughes is down for 22 carries, which is an insane number considering what he was getting hit by for the most part. He wasn't as effective as I'd have liked, but for the most part he presented good ball, and I bet in terms of energy balance, the 2+ Welsh tacklers it normally took to hit him, were more tired on balance for the Welsh side, than he was for the English side. Beat 3 defenders too, and that wasn't in just 1 run, there were a few good, a few OK, and a few poor, but there's a reason his name appeared virtually on every page multiple times, because he was doing stuff all the fecking time. He also put in a dozen tackles, and 4 passes, that means he pretty much interacted with the ball every 2 minutes (not including rucks, and I thought he deserved a turnover at least once). I think only Launchbury had more easily measured interactions.

People wanting to replace him with Hask are just daft. If Hask becomes our main focal point carrier, he'll get stopped every time as well. We need Hask alongside Hughes. I'd drop Clifford personally, he made his tackles, but apart from that he was fairly anonymous for me. Mako coming back will be huge for this team.

 

[Peat]

I'm rewatching the match and making notes. Only about 20 minutes in but Hughes has been very good in that period actually, knock on aside. Arguably our best forward in that period, depending how harsh you want to be on Launch/Lawes for their dumb penalties.

Opening twenty minutes were pretty bloody dominant on reflection. I know that things are about to get a lot worse but for that period we were good.

 

[spartan32]

Pretty much agree with this. Clifford really didn't do it for me and will no doubt dropped once Hask is fit again, with Hughes going once Billy is back

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We lost this game because we failed to convert 2 penalties imo ! and our fitness dropped dramatically in the last 10. Once again this is at club level, I am in no way discrediting the talent of sam but I don't believe for a second that biggar is the issue in relations to tries, it is the coaching imo that needs change, there's a lot of deadwood in that welsh team that needs to be cleared out eg Roberts and Cuthbert shouldn't be anywhere near the team, I am all for bringing in the younger talent for these guy but I still think Sam is just a prospect whereas biggar is a proven international class FH . I think your getting carried away with the FH position, its the other areas that need improving and fresh impetus , Its one thing being great at club level its another doing it at international, give the boy time, make him an impact player so he warms to the role, then maybe start him against the French in the last match if the tournament is lost by then...

You lost the game because you could not convert passion into cold hard skill. At critical times you made bad decisions. The best example being the last England try. That ball should have been out off the field, giving Wales the chance to defend the line out and then try and grind England. Instead you panicked and bashed it straight down field where both are playmakers were waiting for it. The first 20 you were all at sea and I suspect that had Billy, Mako, Hask and Robshaw all been fit to start it might have stayed that way. That being said your back row were pretty imperious at times and certainly Lions call ups are in the offing.

Great test match. You v Ireland should be interesting. Battle of route 1.

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Hughes may have disappointed us(including me) but according to ESPN he made the most metres of anyone on the pitch...just saying!

Bear in mind that a lot of that was taking kicked balls and running them back unchallenged. I'd rather know how many tackles he broke. I could run a ball 50 meters straight into Warburton and then get smashed.

 

[spartan32]

Was Howley systematically trying to undermine Wales from the bench? Moriarty? He's making too many great tackles and carries.... take him off. Ken Owens? He's working too hard for the English to contain...take him off. Scott Williams? He's not running into the nearest English player...take him off. It wasn't even funny. And Cuthbert? Jesus Christ. Seriously, how does Howley have a job.

England are doing really well to be winning these games. Twice now they've less than convincing but still won. I'm more inclined to believe the opposition are throwing it away but still credit where its due. The appetite to come up hard off the line doesn't waiver throughout the game and the team ethic is fantastic. I used to think Farrell was one dimensional but he's turned into a smashing player. Does everything well and having two ball players at 10 and 12 is the making of the side. Picking Teo at 12 would be a terrible move.

Don't follow the Gaelic logic of other teams losing rather then England winning. To go to the home of Welsh rugby, arguably the most hostile away fixture there is, against a fired up and well prepared Welsh side, and come away winners is down to England's new found ability to produce quality rugby right up to the last second, even if we can't do it for an entire match. Much like NZ. How many times have they snatched victory from the jaws of defeat? Is that down to other teams losing, or down to tenacity and execution when it counts? Additionally we came away with that win while missing 4 of starting pack. And finally 16 wins on the trott, beating all but NZ, is surely down to what we can do, rather that what others can't. Even the mighty O'Connell had to concede that England are starting to look like the real deal, and have asserted themselves as the dominant force in the NH.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Genuinely surprised at that, though I suppose he did receive a number of kicks.
Did he make a lot of carries? Metres per carry would be an interesting stat.
Going more into depth (so not stats we can see) it'd be interesting to see what his stats were for metres in contact

Honestly. I wonder sometimes what games you and Henry watch?????????

Nathan Hughes was the ONLY ball carrier of note ALL day for England.
He would have smashed the rest of his team mates for carries and metres in possession.
He was a powerhouse, the only English powerhouse and you guys didn't notice him, well, that says it all. You two are about as perceptive as Jonathan Davies who gave Launchbury man of the match.
Just as I was thinking Launchbury is out on his feet, he's given it everything but he's really one dimensional because when he runs he lacks the menace or pace of Hughes and all he really demands from the opposition is to be tackled (by one player) because he's never going to step or offload like Hughes can and does.
Hughes was everywhere for England. For long periods of English possession I thought he was the only ball carrier and I thought he looked familiar then I checked and realised he was an Auckland age group player and has played ALL of his rugby in New Zealand.
How many more players are England going to steal from us.?
It never ends.
He was going forward carrying 2 and three Welsh forwards with him. He was dynamite and I reckon Eddie was well impressed.
Honestly. I have no idea what game you guys were watching.
If not for Nathan Hughes putting his hand up constantly England would not have got out of their own half for 50% of the match.

 

[Raggs]

Erm, Launch was probably our second best carrier, and whilst he's not a great carrier, he was going well.

As for Hughes. We stole him from Fiji, NZ tried their best to have him for the 7s, but he turned them down, as for playing ALL his rugby in NZ, well he went over there to play rugby at the age of 18, and left at 22, winning all of 19 caps for Auckland. He's been playing at Wasps for almost as long as he was in NZ, and has over 70 caps for them. I'd say he played a little bit of rugby in NZ, but pretty much ALL his rugby in England.

 

[Peat]

Launchbury was on the receiving end of more double tackles than Hughes and probably coped better with them. I've revised my opinion on the effectiveness of Hughes' carrying in the light of a rewatch but ploughing through two or three guys a go regularly and effectively he wasn't.

 

[Raggs]

Launchbury was on the receiving end of more double tackles than Hughes and probably coped better with them. I've revised my opinion on the effectiveness of Hughes' carrying in the light of a rewatch but ploughing through two or three guys a go regularly and effectively he wasn't.

At least against France, Launch tended to act as second carrier after Hughes had been smashed by the biggest defenders, once they're out, it's a bit easier and Launch did well enough. I think it was similar against Wales. Read your opinion on Hughes in the 2 scrums in the 2nd half, think you're being harsh, I'd put the blame on Clifford in the first (Hughes broke, was well past Tips, who had to come around and was cleared by Farrell, Clifford comes in (should have been there first) and kicks away a nicely presented front foot ball). On the second, the scrum was going backwards, so it's a tough pickup, Hughes could have done better, but again, Clifford is absolutely useless in the clearout, and it's the next man that manages to keep the ball on our side.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The biggest problem Hughes has is that he is too quick for the rest of his team. If the Poms were quicker he would have offloaded many times and kept the momentum. Trouble is his team mates are too slow either in the feet or in the brain, to play the continuity game the AB's revel in.
Too many times Hughes was dragged down before support could get to him so it became a ruck instead of a 'roll on'.
Tom Wood might be the answer but a pace support player running on his hip and I'd like to someone like T'eo on playing that line blasting role instead a weedy tentative George Ford.

 

[TommiG88]

The biggest problem Hughes has is that he is too quick for the rest of his team. If the Poms were quicker he would have offloaded many times and kept the momentum. Trouble is his team mates are too slow either in the feet or in the brain, to play the continuity game the AB's revel in.
Too many times Hughes was dragged down before support could get to him so it became a ruck instead of a 'roll on'.
Tom Wood might be the answer but a pace support player running on his hip and I'd like to someone like T'eo on playing that line blasting role instead a weedy tentative George Ford.

Do you read what you type? Absolute drivel.

 

[Raggs]

The biggest problem Hughes has is that he is too quick for the rest of his team. If the Poms were quicker he would have offloaded many times and kept the momentum. Trouble is his team mates are too slow either in the feet or in the brain, to play the continuity game the AB's revel in.
Too many times Hughes was dragged down before support could get to him so it became a ruck instead of a 'roll on'.
Tom Wood might be the answer but a pace support player running on his hip and I'd like to someone like T'eo on playing that line blasting role instead a weedy tentative George Ford.

Can I just ask are you actually a Kiwi, or just an ABs supporter?

 

[The Jones Boy]

It amazes that you Poms might indeed one day be world no.1's and have no idea how you got there.

 

[Peat]

I am being harsh but I put a lot of stock on my 8s keeping their feet when breaking from the scrum and believe that was the original sin in both cases. Would also defend Clifford being second to that breakdown (12 should be first to those for my money) and for not clearing out two people at the same time, he kept one of them off, shame about the other one and Warburton getting there really quick too.

Those feet though... yeesh.

 

[Raggs]

It amazes that you Poms might indeed one day be world no.1's and have no idea how you got there.

It amazes me that you Kiwis seem to think that you are born knowing more about rugby, despite apparently not having a clue about what you're watching...

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Anyway. Hughes made 10 gainline breaks, 50% rate basically then with 22 carries, not too shabby.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Who was the nearest Pom to that tally?

 

[Raggs]

I am being harsh but I put a lot of stock on my 8s keeping their feet when breaking from the scrum and believe that was the original sin in both cases. Would also defend Clifford being second to that breakdown (12 should be first to those for my money) and for not clearing out two people at the same time, he kept one of them off, shame about the other one and Warburton getting there really quick too.

Those feet though... yeesh.

The 12 should be 10m further back than the 7 (more really), Clifford should have broken so much earlier than he did, ridiculous how long he stayed on the side of that scrum for. Eddie is very specific about the 7s role, first to the breakdown on first phase. Clifford wasn't doing it.