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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Wales vs England (11/02/2017)

There's a lot of tall lanky back rowers with pretty good international careers. His given stats are pretty much identical to Kaino iirc. I find your case as baffling as Moriarty's substitution :p

You think Itoje and Kaino have the same build? :eek:
 
Not sure you can point the finger of blame at biggar for the lack of tries? you need to look at the coaching set up and what is being done on the training ground in relation to the lack of set play and creativity. Biggar had a very good game out there and out his body on the line, yes sam is a more creative FH but hes unproven at international level and I think he might of struggled with the intensity in this game. Sam can be a impact player at the moment until he warms to the task of international rugby but I would take biggar as no1 any day of the week at this moment.

I certainly question the coaching, but the stats for the Ospreys speak volumes imo. Sam Davies puts people into space, Biggar does not. For the ospreys, Davies is the one calling all the shots. The ball goes back to him and he picks out the next move, be it a flat pass to a forward on the charge, or a pass out to the backline. I've never really seen Biggar controlling an attack like that. He stands deep and the scrum half.forwards make all the decisions. We lost this game because we couldn't convert pressure into points, and I've lost count at the amount of times this has happened over the past few years. Despite a lot of front foot possession, and quick ball, our back three once again saw almost no ball.

Maybe Sam Davies would have struggled today with the pressure, maybe he would have had a field day with the amount of time we spent in England's 22. There's no real way of knowing, but until something changes, we're going to continue to lose these close matches. I would always want to see an attacking player get the nod over a defensive one, especially as Davies has a great tactical kicking game to boot, another area Biggar struggles with imo.

All we hear from Howley is 'Experience'. He used it once again to justify the selection of Cuthbert. The stark reality is that other than Shane Williams and a few forwards, our best performers during Gatland and Howley's reign have been the young untested players. North, Halfpenny, Priestland, Faletau, Warbs, Roberts, Davies etc. etc. If anything most have progressively gotten worse. Problem is that Howley passed on opportunities to try new players in the Autumn, so backed himself into a corner when it came to this big pressure game v England. It was during the Autumn that Howley really bottled it.
 
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Hughes may have disappointed us(including me) but according to ESPN he made the most metres of anyone on the pitch...just saying!
Genuinely surprised at that, though I suppose he did receive a number of kicks.
Did he make a lot of carries? Metres per carry would be an interesting stat.
Going more into depth (so not stats we can see) it'd be interesting to see what his stats were for metres in contact
 
He made a ****load of carries, very few of them were effective.

I think he made one big run.
 
Hughes took a lot of kick returns and did one big burst. I'm guessing if you subtracted those his stats would look Launchbury-esque - i.e. the stats of a guy carrying straight into two men most of the time.

Tommi, sorry, thought you were saying that was my argument. The idea that Itoje is not tall enough for a position he's played in pretty well is, well, yeah...

Rats - Google gives them 1cm apart in height and the same weight. I'd say that makes them roughly comparable (which is all I was shooting for). If you wanna show me how they're not, then by all means go for it. But its not like I couldn't throw out a fair few other examples of tall skinny international class back rows.
 
Apparently Maro is the same height as Parisse, but 4kg heavier.
Will be interesting to see how much weight he naturally bulks up with over the next season or two. Gotta admit that I see him more as a 2nd row than flanker, but I think that might just be a symptom of our backrow not really functioning at the moment.
Put him in with Haskell and Binny, maybe that's different.
 
Itojie is a lock, thats why Lawes played 6 at the set piece.

Yeah I noticed that in the scrums and looking back it was from outset, although that was maybe more a reflection on Lawes scrummaging than anything else. He was also in the middle of the line out quite a bit. So in essence played as a lock.

As for his size, before the game the BBC flashed up 6 3 and 17 4. I don't believe 6 3, I've always seen 6 5 before, but even that's at the short end for a top lock. 17 4 seems to be quoted everywhere, which I'd say is pretty light for a lock and may be slightly under estimating although he doesn't look overly bulky. Both Welshmen were quoted at 19+ and Lawes and Launch both over 18. If you're looking at the Lions both Retallick and Whitelock are listed around 6 8 and 19.
 
It's not about stats - it's about build.

Itoje's got long limbs and a slim waist, whereas Kaino's a lot thicker set.

James Haskell is 1cm taller than Louis Picamoles and a couple of Kg's heavier - they're not even remotely the same type of athlete though, are they?
 
Genuinely surprised at that, though I suppose he did receive a number of kicks.
Did he make a lot of carries? Metres per carry would be an interesting stat.
Going more into depth (so not stats we can see) it'd be interesting to see what his stats were for metres in contact

From memory he made one pick and go. It would have eaten him some metres for sure but doesn't explain the whole deal.

I don't know what to think just yet but he deserves more time. Today, every single carrier went forward a little less than usual. There was some excellent technique from Wales for example launchbury got driven backwards quite a bit because he was double tackles right at the knees.
It was ferocious and more credit should go to Wales.
 
From memory he made one pick and go. It would have eaten him some metres for sure but doesn't explain the whole deal.

I don't know what to think just yet but he deserves more time. Today, every single carrier went forward a little less than usual. There was some excellent technique from Wales for example launchbury got driven backwards quite a bit because he was double tackles right at the knees.
It was ferocious and more credit should go to Wales.

I agree with this

And as for Itoje I like him as a lock . I can see him filling in as a flanker quite easily and thought he had a great game today but if Krutoje is possible we should 100% go for that
 
From memory he made one pick and go. It would have eaten him some metres for sure but doesn't explain the whole deal.
I don't know what to think just yet but he deserves more time. Today, every single carrier went forward a little less than usual. There was some excellent technique from Wales for example launchbury got driven backwards quite a bit because he was double tackles right at the knees.
It was ferocious and more credit should go to Wales.

It was frustrating though, Wales were clearly saturating the area around the ruck and making double tackles with the 3rd coming in to get a turnover. That is a lot of resources to frequently put into stopping single players yet England never really exploited this by going wide quickly.
 
I'll repeat what I said when j'nuh made the same point... Wales had a great defensive game but you only have to watch the way Haskell used his feet and found space to realise it wasn't all Wales.

Also, if you google Maro Itoje George Kruis, there's a great pic of them stood side by side. Itoje is not 6'3".

Rats - Does Itoje have a slimmer waist than Croft did? Than Henderson does? I'll give you Kaino is a more thickset man, but not enough to render the comparison completely moot.
 


It was frustrating though, Wales were clearly saturating the area around the ruck and making double tackles with the 3rd coming in to get a turnover. That is a lot of resources to frequently put into stopping single players yet England never really exploited this by going wide quickly.

I thought Wales' wide defence was very good . We didn't really straighten the line though we seemed to just flip the ball wide and allow the Welsh to run us to the touchline ...
 
I thought Wales' wide defence was very good . We didn't really straighten the line though we seemed to just flip the ball wide and allow the Welsh to run us to the touchline ...

I meant doing it properly fixing the defence. The Welsh had a huge concentration of defenders around the ruck area and frequently had very exposed wings but England never looked to exploit this until we got to the 22 where Wales fanned out a bit more.
 
Rats - Does Itoje have a slimmer waist than Croft did? Than Henderson does? I'll give you Kaino is a more thickset man, but not enough to render the comparison completely moot.

Croft is too slim to be an effective flanker in a team that requires him to play tight. How's his career going now that he isn't in a side than can play him as a winger?
 
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Not particularly.

He's always been a luxury.

His speed has been a luxury imo he's never been an "elite" flanker but he had something extra on top of his work rate and tackling that no other flanker had . At least before he suffering various near career ending injuries
 
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