[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Wales vs England (11/02/2017)

[Peat]

Bet you he wasn't 10m further back though Eh, I'll give that one to you as I can't be bother to argue/look back. Still say he shouldn't have gone off his feet so quickly though. The third one was good - crab away to avoid a chop tackle, suck in three defenders, present it nicely. Shame Youngs had a Benny Hill moment then.

 

[Raggs]

They were definitely aiming to chop Hughes as quickly as possible, I'd still argue Clifford was poor in support work, even if Hughes could have been better. That kick from Clifford ruined what was good ball, even if Hughes had been taken down quicker than you'd fancy, he'd presented it well and Tips was out the way.

I'm still reading some people questioning Hughes workrate. I'm not sure that's really fair. We weren't really going for the breakdown in defence (though Hughes was probably one of the few making a half decent job of slowing it at times), and in attack we wanted him available for carries. 22 carries, 10 gainline breaks, 12 tackles, especially considering that most of those carries were into heavy traffic, aren't the numbers I'd ascribe to a guy who wasn't working.

 

[Peat]

There was one case where Hughes carried the ball into contact, Itoje picked and went, and Hughes got up and took the next phase off of Youngs. I'd question the lazy thing too.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

There was one case where Hughes carried the ball into contact, Itoje picked and went, and Hughes got up and took the next phase off of Youngs. I'd question the lazy thing too.

I'm with you on this, thought he had a decent game. It does look like he's suffering a little from being asked to do the work of Billy V, which is not what he's ever claimed to do. Let him carry wide at the outside shoulder and he'll make far more ground. As others have said this only works if we have any tight carriers...

That said, George, Marler, Launchbury and Sinkler all made hard ground up the middle, so maybe in a year's time we will have a tight five who can let the back row do their thing.

 

[McTallshort]

To make the case for Hughes....the Welsh backrow were awesome yesterday in defense I'm not sure any No8 in world rugby would have got much change from last night. The fact he kept carrying in the face of that defense is a credit to him.

 

[Mike Rolls]

Hopefully, the results from Saturday will see a hurried end to the silly idea of bonus points in the 6 Nations. One of the advantages claimed for it was that it would encourage more attacking, and therefore more entertaining, Rugby. Really? Ireland ran in 9 tries against the hapless Italians, England and Wales scored only three between them, but that was a far more entertaining and positively gripping match. The game in Rome was embarrassing to watch and a total mismatch, yet Ireland benefitted more from it in terms of Championship points than England – or had they won – Wales - receive. Madness. Apart from enjoying the massacre of Italy –if that is what one enjoys – there was no enjoyment and precious little entertainment to be had from the Rome match.
The idea of points differential is bad enough, but bonus points are a step too far, much too far. As it is, unless there is a Grand Slam, the ***le tends to get decided on who can put most points on the Italians. The imbalance created by having three home games one year, two the next, is bad enough. Of the 9 Grand Slams so far recorded since 5 became 6, only three – Wales in 2005, Ireland in 2009, and England in 2016, have gone to a team only playing 2 home games.
Make no mistake – playing at home is a big advantage. The figures tell it all, the win percentages being:-
England 86% Home 57% Away
France 74% Home 51% Away
Ireland 74% Home 55% Away
Scotland 36% Home 16% Away
Wales 61% Home 48% Away
Italy 23% home 5% Away

Mike

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Looking at the game itself, whilst, as an England supporter, I am grateful to him, what on earth was Jonathon Davies thinking of with his final kick? 2 points up, England applying pressure, chance to clear your lines - that ball had to go into the stands as far away as possible. Lineout 30 yard downfield, or hopefully more and by the time the ball is in the lineout, only about 2 minutes left.
Mike

 

[Every Time Ref]

Haven't read back through the post-game comments in this thread yet, but by page 26 it all seems terribly civil for a Wales-England thread so well done there guys.

I just dropped in to talk about the Wales try. I've been re-watching it this morning, although yesterday as a drunk emotionally-charged Englishman it made me shout angrily at the TV, this morning as a sober backs move geek it's actually giving me a lot of pleasure. If you'll forgive me a bit of geekery here, I had a little look at exactly how it worked - a deceptively simple move, with lots of moving parts and a lot of things needing to be timed and executed right to open up that gap for Liam Williams. Watch from 0:58 here:
https://youtu.be/90_jUX5CP0I?t=58

All the write-ups talk about the dummy run of Scott Williams to hold Farrell, but none mention the dummy runs of Biggar and Davies to JJ's outside which take him wide and open the hole between OF and JJ. This is key.

Fist important thing, Wales controlled the wheel of the scrum to take the back row as far as possible out the equation. Also Youngs has chosen to follow the ball and try and harry the pass from the base, as soon as he is unsuccessful he is out the game and England are a defender down.

8 plays 9 and 9 plays 10. This is important because it frees up an extra man (Biggar) to send wide and distract JJ.

RW (9) runs at GF (10). SW (12) runs a crash line, meaning OF (12) is has to turn in. Once he's turned in, he is unable to cover his outside.

Meanwhile DB (10) and JD (13) run towards JJ's outside. JJ thinks they are setting up a 3-on-2 against him and ED (11) so has no option but to turn out. Timing is important, if they go too early JJ has time to change his mind and get back in to fill the hole. As it is, he turns his hips out and is unable to cover his inside.

The rest as they say is history. Between OF (turned in) and JJ (turned out) there is a gaping hole no-one is covering. OF and JJ don't know it's there because they have been distracted by dummy runners. Wales know it's there because they orchestrated it to be there. LW (11) delays his run so no-one sees him coming, JN (14) is still on the blind side covering a blind back row move. No first line defence, no cover defence, easy score.

From an England perspective - how could they have defended it better? First and foremost, a steady scrum which doesn't allow Wales to nullify their back row. Arguably Clifford could have got of quicker, but he was up against it given the wheel (NB, as a rule of thumb when watching replays of backs moves, I find it is always worth watching the openside flanker from a scrum or the man at the back of the lineout. These are usually key to all the defence further wide)

Youngs could have left the 8 alone and lined up open, either as an extra man in defence or sweeping. Easy to say in retrospect, but there are advantages to the option he chose, if he'd tackled Moriarty or messed up his pass he could have stopped the move at source.

JJ maybe shouldn't have bought the dummy, but again that's easy to say in retrospect, if he'd bitten in and Wales had gone wide there was a 4-on-2 in space and probably only Cuthbert could have ****ed it up.

Nowell should probably have been quicker to cover in my opinion, yes he had to start blind in case of a back row move, but once the scrum has turned the other way, he should have left that to the 6 and 8 (who were the right side) and looked to sweep behind expecting Wales to run open. That is probably my one real criticism of England's defence, however again it is easier to see with hindsight.

Really the only way to reliably stop it would have been to see LW coming and commit to hitting him. Either JJ or OF might have done but the bottom line is the move was designed to stop those 2 seeing LW coming, it was executed perfectly so they didn't and I wouldn't blame either of them too much.

That's my take on it, interested in any other thoughts.

 

[Mike Rolls]

It was a lovely try - and had me screaming at the TV as well!
Mike

 

[valley commando]

Howler lost this in 2 areas firstly picking Cuthbert, secondly his substitutions, Moriarty, Webb and Owens all replaced having been 3 of the best players on the day arguably Moriarty was the best player on the park. Conversely Jones made the right changes at the right time, if marking the coaches out of 10 Jones would get 8.5 and Howler 0.5

 

[dullonien]

We lost this game because we failed to convert 2 penalties imo ! and our fitness dropped dramatically in the last 10. Once again this is at club level, I am in no way discrediting the talent of sam but I don't believe for a second that biggar is the issue in relations to tries, it is the coaching imo that needs change, there's a lot of deadwood in that welsh team that needs to be cleared out eg Roberts and Cuthbert shouldn't be anywhere near the team, I am all for bringing in the younger talent for these guy but I still think Sam is just a prospect whereas biggar is a proven international class FH . I think your getting carried away with the FH position, its the other areas that need improving and fresh impetus , Its one thing being great at club level its another doing it at international, give the boy time, make him an impact player so he warms to the role, then maybe start him against the French in the last match if the tournament is lost by then...

I think that's a being a little short sighted. To blame our loss on AWJ going for the try instead of the posts may have a little truth, but it was far from the biggest issue imo. It's akin to blaming the ref for disallowing a legitimate try for a loss, even though there were plenty of other opportunities to win the match. The biggest issue yesterday was that we were camped in the English 22 for the entirely of the 3rd quarter, yet failed to score a single point. Coaching is a big issue with this, although I actually thought that our attacking patterns in were pretty good at times yesterday, managing to isolate Ford and send players down his channel + getting players free on the outside. However when we got into the red-zone, there was no clear direction from 10, and the forwards started getting a little carried away with the pick & go's. Biggar just never seems to direct play like a 10 should in these positions, that's true be it for the Ospreys or Wales.

The amount of try's the Ospreys have scored this season directly from a Sam Davies pass has been huge. The forwards play off him, with the likes of Cracknell punching big holes by running on his shoulder. In contrast, when the Welsh forwards carry the ball, they are either static, or easy to read, thus not challenging the defense like it should.

Whilst Biggar has been a fine player for us during a period when we had no other options, imo he fails at the primary role of outside half play, being a playmaker. We wouldn't stand for a hooker being unable to throw into a lineout, or a prop unable to scrummage, even if they were defensive demons. If all we want from our 10 is a player that can tackle, then slot Jamie Roberts in at 10 and be done with it. I don't remember Dan Carter ever being praised for a performance based on his defensive interventions, because that wasn't his role. He was tasked with controlling the game, and making sure the AB's scored try's. He wasn't a liability in defense, and that's all that's needed really from a 10.

Sam Davies' two big strengths are in controlling a game (his kicking from hand is varied and accurate) and his attacking play (he's a threat ball in hand, and his distribution game puts others in space). I've seen nothing to suggest that his defense would be a liability at international level, whilst his goal kicking has been on par with Biggar's this season at the Ospreys. The only question mark's surround his experience, yet he's made a difference every time he's stepped onto the field for Wales, and he's been superior to Biggar at the Ospreys this season (if we aren't going to judge the form of players by their regional performances, then what else do we use?).

Howley (and Gatland) have been far to conservative with their selections and tactics. If we want to improve, then both need adjusting. We're already two years into the 4 year wc cycle, and we've learn't very little in that time. Other teams in comparison have managed to completely re-invent themselves. About time we experimented a little.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Added an extra column to the ESPN Stats to give metres made per run.



Some of it is really surprising:


1) Haskell who I agree was highly effective, made just 2 metres in 8 carries
2) Lawes and Marler statistically were our 2nd and 3rd best carriers. To be fair this did match my impression at the time which was that Lawes was effective
3) What exactly was Clifford doing? Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Jack but the stats don't bear out a huge level of involvement - he had the ball on 3 occasions and made fewer tackles than everyone in the pack besides Cole and Hartley. It again matched my impression at the time which was of being completely unaware of Cliffords presence.
5) Jamie George made 12 tackles in his 30 minutes - twice as many as Hartley in his 50 minutes.
6) Haskell made virtually the same number of tackles in his 30 minutes as Clifford in his 50.
7) Although Ford missed some tackles, Farrell missed the most which makes sense as there did seem to be a lot of change for Wales through that channel and not just because Ford was getting bounced. I think we were unexpectedly shown up in midfield last night.
8) In contrast to Wales' half backs who kicked roughly equally between them, Ben Youngs did the majority of our kicking so if there was a problem with our overall tactical kicking game, you'd have to point the finger mainly at him.

Overall none of this goes to prove that impressions from the game were wrong - it doesn't mean Hughes was suddenly great and Haskell was terrible, that's clearly not the case. But I do think it's relevant to consider the stage of the game. Hughes' ineffectiveness was not about metres gained so much as the neatness of ball presentation, and also the complete absence of an offloading game which is part of what he offers at Wasps. When Haskell was carrying late in the game it felt as though we had momentum, and as Peat says he was running into space / shoulders. We were producing quicker ball, partly because of his presentation of the ball from the carry but also I think Wales weren't able to commit as many to the tackle as they had earlier. I think Hughes got drawn into thinking he could outmuscle the Welsh pack and was almost overly looking for the contact rather than the space. My other impression was that he often seemed isolated from his pack mates, as if he just wasn't on the same wavelength. There certainly wasn't enough supported carrying taking place.

 

[j'nuh]

Haskell carries tight, so does Launchbury. They shouldn't be expected to make too many meters. By contrast, 2-3 carries off the back of the scrum and a carry or two from deep probably makes up the majority of Hughes meters. When carrying looser, I didn't see him make too many meters. (And more importantly, the carries he did make, he was often shunted backwards in, making recycling harder.)

One of the standout stats there: Joseph only 4 carries? That seems exceptionally poor for a 13.

Only 9 offloads between the entire 23. Do we always offload that rarely?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Just personal view on some players
Front Row- Scrum was impressive, but Ireland will probably eat us here. Marler was really impressive clearing out imo. George is a better hooker than Hartley we all know that but Hartley has to play every game.....Sinkler played well as did Mullan, Sinkler has a big future.
Locks- Launchbury was magnificent, he's on the plane to NZ surely. Has everything you want from a modern day lock, tackling and carrying well. Top display. Lawes actually carried alot better this week and his lineout work was good as well.
Backrow- No balance at all. Itoje has played 6 for Saracens in 1 or 2 big games at the most, Clermont was his best game, if I remember rightly, at 6. He's an international class lock already. Clifford I couldn't give a rating out of 10 as he was just so missing. I really don't know why he didn't make any impact as I really rate him as a player. Hughes tried his hardest, his work ethic was great, but he got smashed. I know that he was a lone carrier but no contact was on his terms. Haskell again was impressive off the bench, he was better in contact and tackling like a beast, gave away a penalty though.
Youngs can **** off...Care added much more pace to the game and dictated the attack alot better, also made a good supporting run for Teo's break.
Ford didn't play well, he just gives up ground in defence and wasn't great kicking today. He is needed for our style but if Slade or Lozowski play well given the chance he could go, hopefully he raises his game.
Centres - JJ was brilliant, the amount of times he made tackles at full stretch and managed to keep the defensive line in shape was brilliant. He's under appreciated in our team, if he's out then I think we struggle hugely with defence. Farrell I've rated for a while, missed a kick early in but got the decisive kick at the end, his leadership is impressive and I think he's turned into a great player. Would like to see him and Slade tried out together. Teo is an impact player, against tired legs he makes good ground, I don't really want to try him as he limits the game.
Back three- What is brown bringing? He isn't a good kicker, makes poor decisions but he's a bit of a dick so Jones likes him. Nowell and Daly were both really good, Daly is just gifted. He's made for the 23 shirt, but I want him starting. Watson, Daly, Nowell and May are all impressive players.
Feel free to rip apart my comments

 

[valley commando]

Just personal view on some players
Front Row- Scrum was impressive, but Ireland will probably eat us here. Marler was really impressive clearing out imo. George is a better hooker than Hartley we all know that but Hartley has to play every game.....Sinkler played well as did Mullan, Sinkler has a big future.
Locks- Launchbury was magnificent, he's on the plane to NZ surely. Has everything you want from a modern day lock, tackling and carrying well. Top display. Lawes actually carried alot better this week and his lineout work was good as well.
Backrow- No balance at all. Itoje has played 6 for Saracens in 1 or 2 big games at the most, Clermont was his best game, if I remember rightly, at 6. He's an international class lock already. Clifford I couldn't give a rating out of 10 as he was just so missing. I really don't know why he didn't make any impact as I really rate him as a player. Hughes tried his hardest, his work ethic was great, but he got smashed. I know that he was a lone carrier but no contact was on his terms. Haskell again was impressive off the bench, he was better in contact and tackling like a beast, gave away a penalty though.
Youngs can **** off...Care added much more pace to the game and dictated the attack alot better, also made a good supporting run for Teo's break.
Ford didn't play well, he just gives up ground in defence and wasn't great kicking today. He is needed for our style but if Slade or Lozowski play well given the chance he could go, hopefully he raises his game.
Centres - JJ was brilliant, the amount of times he made tackles at full stretch and managed to keep the defensive line in shape was brilliant. He's under appreciated in our team, if he's out then I think we struggle hugely with defence. Farrell I've rated for a while, missed a kick early in but got the decisive kick at the end, his leadership is impressive and I think he's turned into a great player. Would like to see him and Slade tried out together. Teo is an impact player, against tired legs he makes good ground, I don't really want to try him as he limits the game.
Back three- What is brown bringing? He isn't a good kicker, makes poor decisions but he's a bit of a dick so Jones likes him. Nowell and Daly were both really good, Daly is just gifted. He's made for the 23 shirt, but I want him starting. Watson, Daly, Nowell and May are all impressive players.
Feel free to rip apart my comments

I have to agree with you on several points, firstly George, for me head and shoulders above Hartley, you improved when George came on as you did when your other subs arrived we got worse when Owens, Moriarty and Webb departed. I see George as a serious threat to Best as Lions hooker.
Launchberry was excellent, I'd like to see him and AWJ as a Lions pairing.
There were 2 areas were we were better(pre substitutions) at 1/2 back and in the back row, if we picked a combined England/Wales side from yesterday it would be 1 to 5 England, 6 to 10 Wales, 1/2 penny Liam W and your centres with Daly on the other wing

 

[Every Time Ref]

Just personal view on some players
Front Row- Scrum was impressive, but Ireland will probably eat us here. Marler was really impressive clearing out imo. George is a better hooker than Hartley we all know that but Hartley has to play every game.....Sinkler played well as did Mullan, Sinkler has a big future.
Locks- Launchbury was magnificent, he's on the plane to NZ surely. Has everything you want from a modern day lock, tackling and carrying well. Top display. Lawes actually carried alot better this week and his lineout work was good as well.
Backrow- No balance at all. Itoje has played 6 for Saracens in 1 or 2 big games at the most, Clermont was his best game, if I remember rightly, at 6. He's an international class lock already. Clifford I couldn't give a rating out of 10 as he was just so missing. I really don't know why he didn't make any impact as I really rate him as a player. Hughes tried his hardest, his work ethic was great, but he got smashed. I know that he was a lone carrier but no contact was on his terms. Haskell again was impressive off the bench, he was better in contact and tackling like a beast, gave away a penalty though.
Youngs can **** off...Care added much more pace to the game and dictated the attack alot better, also made a good supporting run for Teo's break.
Ford didn't play well, he just gives up ground in defence and wasn't great kicking today. He is needed for our style but if Slade or Lozowski play well given the chance he could go, hopefully he raises his game.
Centres - JJ was brilliant, the amount of times he made tackles at full stretch and managed to keep the defensive line in shape was brilliant. He's under appreciated in our team, if he's out then I think we struggle hugely with defence. Farrell I've rated for a while, missed a kick early in but got the decisive kick at the end, his leadership is impressive and I think he's turned into a great player. Would like to see him and Slade tried out together. Teo is an impact player, against tired legs he makes good ground, I don't really want to try him as he limits the game.
Back three- What is brown bringing? He isn't a good kicker, makes poor decisions but he's a bit of a dick so Jones likes him. Nowell and Daly were both really good, Daly is just gifted. He's made for the 23 shirt, but I want him starting. Watson, Daly, Nowell and May are all impressive players.
Feel free to rip apart my comments

Agree about JJ, I think. I've defended him for a long time, I am startign to maybe come round to the possibility of replacing him as he's not offering as much as he should in attack at the moment. But I think without him we'd realise what we were missing defensively, he contributes massively to our wide defence. We often defend to narrow, adn it's because of JJ that more often than not, we get away with that.

EDIT: There's a moment that exemplifies this at 56 minutes if you can be bothered to watch back, Wales go wide on the edge of Engalnd's 22, Nowel steps out and gets caught in nomansland, WIlliams gets it on his outside, is tackled by JJ haring round to cover. Phase later, again Liam Williams down the left, again it's JJ tackling him, probably each of those saved a try

 

[TommiG88]

Watching the game again, Wales shaded the first half.

First 5 of 2nd England started looking a bit more dangerous but Garces missed a couple of things.

Moriarty was really late and S Williams got away with a deliberate knock on.

I didn't catch much of the second half yesterday as I was at a 40th. But 14mins into the second and we look so much better. Wales may have had the territory but aren't offering much.

Wales' back row is winning the battle but England's set piece is better.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Watching the game again, Wales shaded the first half.

First 5 of 2nd England started looking a bit more dangerous but Garces missed a couple of things.

Moriarty was really late and S Williams got away with a deliberate knock on.

Think we might be watching exactly in tandem!

 

[TommiG88]

Think we might be watching exactly in tandem!

Getting a more sober and less passionate view of the game. Some of my Welsh friends said they deserved the win last night, but watching it now I can't see what they're basing it on. They are beating us in the contact and at the breakdown.

The commentary doesn't help as they are making Wales out to all over us.

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Webb is winning the 9 battle by a mile.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Getting a more sober and less passionate view of the game. Some of my Welsh friends said they deserved the win last night, but watching it now I can't see what they're basing it on. They are beating us in the contact and at the breakdown.

The commentary doesn't help as they are making Wales out to all over us.

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Webb is winning the 9 battle by a mile.

WE were our own worst enemy in terms of giving them the ball back and never clearing our lines effectively though

 

[corny]

Don't follow the Gaelic logic of other teams losing rather then England winning. To go to the home of Welsh rugby, arguably the most hostile away fixture there is, against a fired up and well prepared Welsh side, and come away winners is down to England's new found ability to produce quality rugby right up to the last second, even if we can't do it for an entire match. Much like NZ. How many times have they snatched victory from the jaws of defeat? Is that down to other teams losing, or down to tenacity and execution when it counts? Additionally we came away with that win while missing 4 of starting pack. And finally 16 wins on the trott, beating all but NZ, is surely down to what we can do, rather that what others can't. Even the mighty O'Connell had to concede that England are starting to look like the real deal, and have asserted themselves as the dominant force in the NH.

Is it though? Or is it down to Davies not kicking the ball into the stands and Cuthbert not realising Daly was drifting outside him? I gave credit to England. It wasn't back handed. If you choose to ignore the fact the opposition have had the winning of both games in favour of pontificating thats up to you.