[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Wales vs England (11/02/2017)

[TommiG88]

WE were our own worst enemy in terms of giving them the ball back and never clearing our lines effectively though

Agreed. In the first 20 we were on top, then started playing in wrong areas with poor decisions thrown into the mix.

Just about to finish the game. Wales bestest us at the breakdown and Webb showed Youngs up.

On the note of the changes, I do not think changes made a difference. England were starting to get on top and Howley had to bring on fresh legs.

Cuthbert made a knock on but also made a try saving tackle. The difference between him and Daly was tiredness at the end of the day.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Having watched the game through again, players who I’d like to see more of and players I’d like to see less of (based on yesterday’s performance)

George - just can’t see anything Hartley has over him anymore, literally not a thing (see below)
Haskell - mainly for what the other back rows did / didn’t do to be fair
Lawes - good work rate, contribution all round. Still not a first choice lock though
Marler - although we talk about the Vumipolae’s return and need more carrying, Marler contributed an enormous amount in the loose, especially defensively but in the rucks as well
Teo - still think JJ stays, but Teo offers something as a sub

Hartley - time to go. As someone else pointed out, based on yesterday when we were losing with him and won without him, it doesn’t seem like his leadership is that strong so what is keeping him in the side?
Itoje as a flanker - gave him credit after France game, but yeah, although he played decently he played like a lock. Nonetheless, could still be the least worst option given our injuries
Youngs - still not sure Care is fundamentally better, really we need an alternative to both, but Youngs didn’t do his case any good yesterday
Clifford - who? Utterly anonymous
Brown - made several mistakes, looked indecisive every time he had the ball, there are much better options

50-50
Hughes - not as bad as some are making out but doesn’t look international class yet. However, he was playing a role he’s not suited to and I still think he has a future
Ford - another pretty poor game behind a beaten pack. However, if your flyhalf is playing **** behind a been pack then unlike some I believe your problem is not your flyhalf
Sinckler - definitely much better in the loose than Cole, although Cole still the better scrummager. And what an important turnover … you could maybe claim it was borderline legal, but it was a hell of a lot more legal than Liam Williams’ right before that JD clearance kick!

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Is it though? Or is it down to Davies not kicking the ball into the stands and Cuthbert not realising Daly was drifting outside him? I gave credit to England. It wasn't back handed. If you choose to ignore the fact the opposition have had the winning of both games in favour of pontificating thats up to you.

I have to agree with this, I don't buy the received wisdom that yesterday showed England knew how to win a game despite being outplayed. We had our chance to earn ourselves the winning try, and Youngs gave the ball away to Biggar, actually there was a lot of evidence of England playing without composure and making stupid mistakes when we were in a position to win the game.

As you say, what actually won us the game, in the end, was a gift from the opposition.

FWIW, as a Bath and England supporter I have led a charmed life this weekend ... over two matches, my teams have been gifted a chance to win the game in the dying minutes three times!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I have to agree with this, I don't buy the received wisdom that yesterday showed England knew how to win a game despite being outplayed. We had our chance to earn ourselves the winning try, and Youngs gave the ball away to Biggar, actually there was a lot of evidence of England playing without composure and making stupid mistakes when we were in a position to win the game.

As you say, what actually won us the game, in the end, was a gift from the opposition.

FWIW, as a Bath and England supporter I have led a charmed life this weekend ... over two matches, my teams have been gifted a chance to win the game in the dying minutes three times!

Looking back I don't really like the claim that Wales "gifted" us the game tbh. If you look at large chunks of the Welsh dominance that was gifted to them by us. Knock ons not under pressure, Browns kick out on the full, JJ throwing to the stands, Youngs throwing an easy intercept and an easy charge down, not putting any men into our own breakdown and giving the Welsh free rein to turn the ball over (they did very well to do it but English presence at the breakdown was pathetic). Looking back England gifted Wales a LOT throughout the game that directly led to a lot of the pressure we were under. Also even though the kick was a gift, getting the ball across the field and then scoring the try as we did wasn't luck, that was skill. We could easily have got that kick and then squandered it.

I'm just not to keen boiling the entire game down to 1 mistake by Wales as proof England were lucky whilst ignoring all the mistakes England made that handed Wales easy possession and territory. If anything you could look at it the other way, England gave Wales lots of chances through mistakes but they failed to capitalise on them whilst England did capitalise on the crucial Welsh mistakes.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Looking back I don't really like the claim that Wales "gifted" us the game tbh. If you look at large chunks of the Welsh dominance that was gifted to them by us. Knock ons not under pressure, Browns kick out on the full, JJ throwing to the stands, Youngs throwing an easy intercept and an easy charge down, not putting any men into our own breakdown and giving the Welsh free rein to turn the ball over (they did very well to do it but English presence at the breakdown was pathetic). Looking back England gifted Wales a LOT throughout the game that directly led to a lot of the pressure we were under. Also even though the kick was a gift, getting the ball across the field and then scoring the try as we did wasn't luck, that was skill. We could easily have got that kick and then squandered it.

I'm just not to keen boiling the entire game down to 1 mistake by Wales as proof England were lucky whilst ignoring all the mistakes England made that handed Wales easy possession and territory. If anything you could look at it the other way, England gave Wales lots of chances through mistakes but they failed to capitalise on them whilst England did capitalise on the crucial Welsh mistakes.

I agree with all of that.

I don't mean to suggest that England were "lucky" as such, but the like a lot of close games it turned on one incident - and in this case, that incident was not one England built for themselves, it was a chance they were gifted and did well to take

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with all of that.

I don't mean to suggest that England were "lucky" as such, but the like a lot of close games it turned on one incident - and in this case, that incident was not one England built for themselves, it was a chance they were gifted and did well to take

I'm not saying you did, but a fair few Celts in particular are claiming England are only winning because of luck, some of genuinely claimed our entire winning streak is just luck and England are still lower 6N in terms of actual ability. Obviously it's ridiculous but the narrative that England are winning through luck and nothing more is gaining traction with many English also boiling the entire win down to a lucky gift from Wales.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Everyone who wins is lucky in some way innit? That's life, that's sport

 

[AzaMatt]

its lucky in just the same way we were lucky to win that game in the 2015 RWC. both teams made errors/played well in parts throughout the game but a couple of decisions at the end cost the game.

 

[TommiG88]

If JD made touch and England had a lineout on the 22.

How solid Englands lineout and maul were going, who says we couldn't have scored another try?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My first half noteswith a particular view to assessing Hughes.

First penalty against Lawes borderline but just about fair, Great gain-line hit and the ball was probably available but technically its an ok call.

Strong gain-line tackling from Marler
Timing of Youngs and Hartley running onto the short ball all wrong - Hartley should also never be stripped of the ball here.

Ken Owens very effective at the chop tackle but I'm not sure how legal? Most of the time he wasn't able to wrap the arms and was more just tripping up the ball carrier. Isn't this supposed to be officiated a bit more stringently?

Hughes knocks the ball on at 4 minutes 54 without any excuse at all - pass was on if he takes that and is then looking at an offload, there is space outside him with Joseph and Ford staring at a gigantic hole and only one defender.

Next Hughes carry where he gets his gum shield knocked out he is absolutely smashed by Moriarty and Alun-Wyn - One going low and the other a bit higher. To be fair, he still didn't go backwards. Can't really fault him here.

Wales line out, Ford comes up bit too quickly to get Bigger and creates a dog-leg, Hughes is caught I between coming and going in support of Ford and contributes to the big gaping hole. Wales break the line and Lawes makes an excellent saving tackle and the ball ends up being dislodged. Penalty given to England for not rolling away.

England line out, Hughes actually takes the ball at speed from Youngs and makes a great carry, bouncing Tipuric. England should get quick ball here but Alun-Wyn is lying on the wrong side and massively slows it down.

Next phase excellent carry from Lawes right through two tacklers.Ball goes the other way, I thought Youngs was looking for Hughes to be a little flatter but instead had to pass back from the gain-line which checked momentum and allowed Webb to make a great tackle on Hughes.

Nice line from Nowell results in a half-break, nicely fed by Youngs. When Youngs redistributes it on the short side. Ford was elsewhere and I though Farrell was too far from the breakdown to receive the ball and was eating up the space of the 3 guys outside him - this allowed only 2 Wales defenders to somehow cover the whole stretch between them. Farrell takes the contact instead and Alun-Wyn makes a superhuman turnover which Imo was absolutely legal

Following the penalty advantage for a high tackle Youngs went for a strange banana-kick to nothing….except it really was to nothing - think we need to be better at using those free-plays.

Next line out from the penalty a lovely play by England with Farrell running a great line. Webb deliberately knocks on from Young pass in a position where England have quick ball and a ot of space and men out-wide. Knock-on advantage definitely not enough here.

Farrell misses penalty and from restart England run it back - strong carry from Hughes INTO SPACE.

Lovely quick ball and hands from Farrell, Brown goes through. Bizarre tackle attempt from Cuthbert… Youngs puts in a crap pass which Launchbury running onto it has to jump for and Launch gets smashed (to be fair, Launch also got his timing wrong).

Next couple of phases Hughes has some decent carries although one of them Webb scrags him very effectively.

England swing back and forth some great carries and here the half backs putting people into space very effectively especially Fords late passes.

We ended up 5 metres from the line and allowed things to slow down far too much where we had space outside.

Hughes makes a terrible attempt to go for the line with completely upright body position and gets driven back by 3 Wales players. When we ship it wide we use the space and Youngs goes over from the ruck.

England under the cosh now for a bit, defensive line is ok, Itoje does well to lead it. Our attempts to compete the ball. as they are for the rest of the game, are not quite accurate enough. Launchbury penalised for being on the wrong side which seemed a little harsh.

Nowell with some excellent cover from Biggars kick through.

30 minute mark off the scrum Hughes looks for the contact Bigger and just gets felled. Waste of a good opportunity. Webb then gets in on Youngs and manages to slow the ball down and resulting in a score to England.

32 minute scrum -Rob Evans hinged massively and should have been penalised, Hughes wasn't composed enough at the base and made it look as though he as under more pressure than he was. He looked like he was anticipating the tackle from Tipuric too much and was already going to ground. Bad turnover to give away in that position.

Thought Wales looked good in the successive phases though one thing I'd say is Biggars pass which put Rob Evans into that hole was extremely flat, I think it might have been slightly forward.

Good scramble defence with Marler really athletically coming out of the line and tackling well to prevent it going wide early enough, but apparently in slow motion it looked ok.

I do think Youngs was offside where the pass went off Alun-Wyns head and if it wasn't for the pressure exerted Wales probably should have scored a try.

Scrum minute 36, Hughes did really welloff the back of that scrum. Youngs' box kick without any guard was stupid.

Wales scrum, lovely line from Liam Williams and Farrell and Jospeh just stood up. Lovely stuff, don't really blame the back row.

After that until the end of the half we looked a little shocked, absolutely no structure. Clifford got stopped like a brick wall and stripped of the ball. Ford with a pretty poor up and under to close out the half with a Wales knock-on.


Overall first half looking back I think Marler had a really excellent first half and to be honest when it comes to Hughes I thought he made some mistakes, some he probably wouldn't make again but some which he would. Wales really put a lot of resources into stopping him and despite this I think he did ok. He appeared to make more ground than I remember - no wrecking ball carries but making typically a metre or so. I think his second half was poorer from memory but I haven't got there yet!

 

[spartan32]

Is it though? Or is it down to Davies not kicking the ball into the stands and Cuthbert not realising Daly was drifting outside him? I gave credit to England. It wasn't back handed. If you choose to ignore the fact the opposition have had the winning of both games in favour of pontificating thats up to you.

I put it to you that the reason those errors were made is because of the constant threat that England posed. If that had been Italy, for example, in the last throws with Wales in their 22, Davies wouldn't have fealt so much pressure and would have made the correct decision. As it was he panicked, and the with o lay three Englishman attacking them Wales again panicked, why, because they knew they were in trouble. Errors can sometimes be self generated, but at the same time top quality sides force them in others. They have a psychological edge that comes with consistently winning. Opponents fear they can achieve the impossible, and in so doing often create the chances for the impossible to happen. How many times have NZ won a game with the final play of a match, or in red time. How often has it been said that unless you are two scores ahead with minutes to go you haven't got them beat? This is starting to be true of England. Wales thought they had it done with 4 minutes to go, and how wrong they were. Same could be said for France. If England are in touching distant with time to go then any team is in trouble.

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If JD made touch and England had a lineout on the 22.

How solid Englands lineout and maul were going, who says we couldn't have scored another try?

In any event we should have put the game to bed just before that rediculous pass that Biggar intercepted. That should have been an easy run in, so in the end justice was done. I hope Ford got DOD for that one

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FinAl word from me on this English luck thing. Wales had a tonne of possession and decent territory and managed to do nothing with it. Certainly England are better man for man then Wales but they had more then enough firepower to score and they just couldn't do it. I suggest that was down to Englands quality defence while missing 4 critical players. The final score was far from certain and required a great deal of skill, vision and composure to pull off. Davies seemed to me to make the conscious decision to keep the ball in play when he kicked it, probably fearing an England catch and drive giving that we were crushing Wales in the maul. He probably thought we would run it into contact, get isolated and the Wales back row would reap the rewards. How wrong could he be. This is not luck. It is cultivated self belief based on a bedrock of talent finally be coached to the correct standard. Great game, but England were the better team. Enough said

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Second half

Lot of shenanigans going on in the early part of this half. Late tackle by Moriarty was really obvious. However I kinda liked that Garces didn't keep going back to review things on request because it meant he wasn't given it to the pestering from both sides.

Not sure how it qualifies as a knock on from Webb leading to the England scrum - if the ball never leaves the ground how can it be a knock on?

England too clunky off the back of the scrum, timing wrong which checks Joseph and he's held up for too long. However, couple examples here of Biggar and others being told to get off and then stripping the ball, or just continuing to hold on too long and making it impossible for England to get it out quickly.

46 minutes, Hughes absolutely demolished by Moriarty. You will very rarely see a tackle that good on a man so big. Moore made a good point about Hughes being used as a one-out and that Billy learnt the hard way that this doesn't work. Nathan needs to learn that.

Loved the changes being made, doesn't matter if you're skipper. If you play badly you come off.

48 minutes Hughes made a tackle and got back to his feet to compete. Cleared out but he gave England a split second and then Cole and Haskell were able to put some pressure which resulted in a knock on. Overall Haskells gain-line defence already in evidence.

Brown screwed his kick but I can forgive that. Had an alright game otherwise.


50 minutes Hughes doesn't manage to hold moriarty in the tackle so the latter gets back to his feet and goes on.

51 minutes there was a clear opportunity for a turnover with the carrier isolated - Itoje goes to compete but just gets the body positing wrong and is cleared out too easily - not accurate enough.

52 minutes good to see us getting back to some basics with the penalty from the maul. Used the advantage but really poor pass from Joseph - definitely not having his best day so far.

54 minutes from the llineout, great example of Haskell running at the shoulder, taking two back-rowers to bring him down, going forward and still presenting the ball nicely. This was such a key difference with Haskell on the field.

Phase or so later seems to be a little confusion between Farrell and Joseph regarding who runs what line. The more I think about it, there wasn't a lot of chemistry here.

Penalty against Warburton on 54 minutes I first thought seemed unfair but on second appearance Warburton didn't come through the gate and also wasn't total sporting his body weight in competing for that ball.

After the restart Brown runs it back and somehow we failed to look after the ball. Not entirely convinced Wales were on their feet in securing the turnover. Also, didn't see it at the time but Itoje is literally rolled right on his head by someone, doesn't look safe at all.

Also at 56, Lawes makes a not entirely completed / legal tackle on Wyn-Jones who rolls around a bit. Not sure if he was making a bit of a song and dance of if he genuinely got stung. Crap ruck defence and Davies goes through.

Ball goes outside and some great defence by Jospeh.

57 minutes Haskell with a great tackle out of the line on Faletau. Momentum changer.

58 minutes Itoje and George with another smashing double-team tackle. George doing what Wales had been doing to us all night.

59 minutes shame Haskell got on the wrong side because Cole, who otherwise did very little, seemed to have bagged himself a turnover.

Just an observation at this point..neither team pilfered much turnover legitimately, but for England it looked like Hughes was the de facto number 7. Noone else was very effective.

61 - nice pick and go from Hughes but no-one on the same wavelength.

62 - wow, an example of England carrying with a support o the shoulder - Launchbury with Itoje - and guess what, we make yardage!

63 minutes if Haskell has a bit more awareness he has Farrell coming in behind him and England have some men over to the left. They are too far behind though and Haskell can only take contact.

Two phases later, what the hell is Webb doing coming in from left of the screen getting in the way and taking Brown with him!!?

64 - This is just embarrassing, completely unnecessarily long pass from Youngs when Wales are all but down. Completely ridiculous, you cannot float a pass that flat so close to the Wales line Great work by Biggar though. Great work Daly.

65 - terrible line out Wales and a godsend for England - no jumped actually got off the ground fully. Good scrum to follow this up with.

67 Care is already varying passes more than Youngs was able to and keeps Wales guessing .

Nice crash ball from Lawes and Teo but good defence Wales. England look of if a little clunky across the pitch. Penalty against Samson Lee borderline.

71 minutes nothing special here except note that Hughes is competing and slowing it down. Who else is doing that?

72 Linespeed massively reinvigorated with George SInkler and Haskell jumping up. Itoje still going.

Itoje competing on the ball and appears to have a snifter but Garces gives Wales more time to clear him out. I don't mind this because it was absolutely consistent all day.

73/4 Hughes smashed because he's already falling into contact. Probably trying too hard to stay on his feet and overcompensating.

Two great runs from Teo and let's note it's him who gets us into the danger zone which results in Davies' crap clearance kick. Haskell makes a good carry - can't believe he only made two metres. Wales struggling to hold on.

Farrell with his best contribution of the day to pick out Daly with the long pass.

 

[corny]

I put it to you that the reason those errors were made is because of the constant threat that England posed. If that had been Italy, for example, in the last throws with Wales in their 22, Davies wouldn't have fealt so much pressure and would have made the correct decision. As it was he panicked, and the with o lay three Englishman attacking them Wales again panicked, why, because they knew they were in trouble. Errors can sometimes be self generated, but at the same time top quality sides force them in others. They have a psychological edge that comes with consistently winning. Opponents fear they can achieve the impossible, and in so doing often create the chances for the impossible to happen. How many times have NZ won a game with the final play of a match, or in red time. How often has it been said that unless you are two scores ahead with minutes to go you haven't got them beat? This is starting to be true of England. Wales thought they had it done with 4 minutes to go, and how wrong they were. Same could be said for France. If England are in touching distant with time to go then any team is in trouble.

I think we're agreed England play for the 80 and thats laudable. I think where we disagree is you seem to think England wasting a good attacking position, losing possession to Wales in the 75th minute and gifting Davies an EASY out is somehow evidence of their general superiority. Part of the masterplan as it were. I'm not buying that. Wales had their chance to close out the game, it was a straightforward chance and they blew it. Thats on them and in truth its in keeping with the malaise thats gripping them under Howley.

The bolded bit? More pontificating. I cringed reading it.

 

[Which Tyler]

Not sure how it qualifies as a knock on from Webb leading to the England scrum - if the ball never leaves the ground how can it be a knock on?

My main question is... did you really just ask that?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My main question is... did you really just ask that?

Ok please explain. Webb hand always has contact with the ball and the ball is always on the ground. It's like there is always a form of pressure connecting the ball to the ground...where is the knock-on? My main point and probably I'm just massively misunderstanding something is that every often at the base of a ruck a player touches the ball but doesn't pick it up, usually because of the pressure of the counter ruck but because the ball is constantly in contact with the ground and the players hand pushing it to the ground, it's not qualifying as a knock on even though it appears to be nudged forward...does this not make any sense?

 

[Which Tyler]

It means they often get away with it.
If the ball touches a hand, and goes forwards from that HND, making contact with the ground, it's a knock on, controlled or otherwise.

If the ball is on the ground, you can out a hand on it to stabilise it, you can roll it backwards; but rolling it forwards is a knock on.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think we're agreed England play for the 80 and thats laudable. I think where we disagree is you seem to think England wasting a good attacking position, losing possession to Wales in the 75th minute and gifting Davies an EASY out is somehow evidence of their general superiority. Part of the masterplan as it were. I'm not buying that. Wales had their chance to close out the game, it was a straightforward chance and they blew it. Thats on them and in truth its in keeping with the malaise thats gripping them under Howley.

The bolded bit? More pontificating. I cringed reading it.

I think you are making it out to be a lot easier and straight forward finish to a game than it was .... probably only equally as difficult as Irelands out against Scotland that they didn't manage at 70 minutes Ireland were beating Scotland by 1 and at 70 minutes Wales were beating England by 2..... England were in the ascendency by the 70th minute and were heaping pressure on . The best JD2 could have hoped for was to get it out to the 22 and like someone said above England's maul was looking very good at the time . There's no saying we wouldn't have scored anyway ....

 

[Peat]

5) Jamie George made 12 tackles in his 30 minutes - twice as many as Hartley in his 50 minutes.
6) Haskell made virtually the same number of tackles in his 30 minutes as Clifford in his 50.

At 32 minutes in, Beeb flash a stat that Wales have made 81 tackles and England 38. I presume that was slightly inaccurate, but it reflects the game well enough. In the next 13/14 minutes until Hartley and Clifford are off, we have four scrums, one try and conversion, two lineouts and I think 3-4 minutes of England having the ball. For the time they're on the pitch, Wales are making more of the tackles than England and given we end up with roughly equal tackles, I'm presuming there were a lot more tackles to be made with George/Haskell there.

Which doesn't really completely exonerate Hartley (things would look better for him though if he'd made the 3 he missed) but Clifford can hold his head high.

Is it though? Or is it down to Davies not kicking the ball into the stands and Cuthbert not realising Daly was drifting outside him? I gave credit to England. It wasn't back handed. If you choose to ignore the fact the opposition have had the winning of both games in favour of pontificating thats up to you.

Every team lives off opposition mistakes. We forced mistakes at key times and were a lot more clinical in punishing theirs than they were in punishing ours. Good enough for me.

 

[Maverick1987]

I live in Wales so was watching Scrum V earlier and the bias was worse than I've ever seen .... Ross Harries, Sara Elgin and Gwyn Jones took it in turns to shout down Phil Vickery if he dared mention an England player whilst spending at least 20 minutes of the hour long program talking about Ross Moriarty (who I agreed was brilliant) then 10 minutes talking about Biggar and 5 talking about Sam Davies then showed the Welsh Pro 12 teams before finishing the program without even showing the Scotland Vs France or the Ireland vs Italy games before finishing up by saying Wales lost the game England didn't win it ..... FML who's funding this **** ......

 

[ThebigARena]

I live in Wales so was watching Scrum V earlier and the bias was worse than I've ever seen .... Ross Harries, Sara Elgin and Gwyn Jones took it in turns to shout down Phil Vickery if he dared mention an England player whilst spending at least 20 minutes of the hour long program talking about Ross Moriarty (who I agreed was brilliant) then 10 minutes talking about Biggar and 5 talking about Sam Davies then showed the Welsh Pro 12 teams before finishing the program without even showing the Scotland Vs France or the Ireland vs Italy games before finishing up by saying Wales lost the game England didn't win it ..... FML who's funding this **** ......

Predictable response from an Englishman watching a welsh rugby publication. BBC Wales caters to the welsh audience just like THE BEEB caters to the English. If it irritates you that much then don't watch it, Simples...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Predictable response from an Englishman watching a welsh rugby publication. BBC Wales caters to the welsh audience just like THE BEEB caters to the English. If it irritates you that much then don't watch it, Simples...

History is meant to be written by the winners so ScumV shouldn't say anything.