[2016 Super Rugby] Jaguares vs. Sharks (Round 12) 14/05/2016

[Cruz_del_Sur]

disagree 100%. The ref was bad, but we did not lose because of him.
I urge you all to stop watching the games through ESPN.
Our second try was questionable, at best, yet i don't see argentines calling that biased.
Let s call a spade a spade. Bad refereeing is one thing, biased is completely different thing.
We lost and the reasons were it took us 30 minutes with 90% of possession to put a point on the board and because of the number of silly penalties we made against a team with lambie on it.
I strongly believe the reason for the former is that, thou good, we are a very predictable team.

 

[saulan]

More bad news for the Jaguares. Creevey cited for the tackle on Deysel and Senatore cited for biting.

 

[petite]

I'm not saying we lost because of the reff. I'm saying he ended up being determinant on the final score. Jaguares made enough mistakes to loose it. merit for the sharks to hold on and finally get the win.

 

[saulan]

I'm not saying we lost because of the reff. I'm saying he ended up being determinant on the final score. Jaguares made enough mistakes to loose it. merit for the sharks to hold on and finally get the win.

So you are saying that he was not the only reason but he was a partial reason for the loss? I felt bad for the ref really, he was in a tough situation. He was getting pressure from the Jaguares players and the crowd was hostile to him on any decision he didn't make for their team. Added to that, the discipline of the Jaguares continued to be terrible. I don't think he did a bad job keeping control of that match. If you want to blame anyone for that loss, look squarely on the players. Their discipline has been bad throughout the season and they still haven't sorted it out at this stage of the tournament. Creevey did a good job trying to stop his players from moaning at the red, but that cannot be the first thing you do when something gets blown against you. Taking the captaincy away from Mtawarira this match subdued the Sharks players silly comments to the ref this match. Shouting and arguing with a ref is not going to help your cause and is going to deteriorate the relationship between your team and the ref.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

@petite
My bad then, apologies.

Because, and I mean no disrespect here, you don't have any referees at the required level for Super Rugby. Neither Francisco Pastrana nor Federico Anselmi are on the SANZAAR Referee Panel.

Couldn't you argue that in order for them to get to the required level you need to give them some games to improve/test them? I'm not asking for them to ref the play-offs, but why not give them a more inconsequential (no offense) game, say something like Kings vs Jaguares (meaning we're both out already)?
I get what you are saying and partially agree, but i don't see how what's being done is going to help our refs get to that level.

 

[saulan]

Couldn't you argue that in order for them to get to the required level you need to give them some games to improve/test them?

That should never be an argument for someone to get to the required level. To get to the required level you perform well in lower leagues or divisions and work your way up (such as other club/ leagues in Argentina). You get tested when you are deemed to be there or there abouts. An example of what you are suggesting is the Kings in Currie Cup and Super Rugby. Moreso in Currie Cup. They didn't earn their position in the premier division, it was forced upon them and people said that they aren't being given the opportunity, put them in the top league (even though they weren't good enough to win the second division). Now they are still terrible but they can't be dropped from the top division. It hasn't gained them any fans, it has just gained them disdain and no one believes in them or think they deserve it.

If you force it on a ref who hasn't shown they are up to standard, the most likely outcome is everyone thinking you're incompetent and no one really respecting you (and since they would most likely be the first Argentinian, people may label Argentinian refs as poor overall). Steve Walsh comes to mind.

 

[marianodan]

Is "the required level" an euphemism for "not being anglo"?

 

[saulan]

Is "the required level" an euphemism for "not being anglo"?

No one has said that at all. My comment was to Cruz based on the argument he presented. @smartcooky commented on the ability of the referees and he probably knows the most about refs and what is a good or a bad performance out of all of us.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

That should never be an argument for someone to get to the required level. To get to the required level you perform well in lower leagues or divisions and work your way up (such as other club/ leagues in Argentina). You get tested when you are deemed to be there or there abouts. An example of what you are suggesting is the Kings in Currie Cup and Super Rugby. Moreso in Currie Cup. They didn't earn their position in the premier division, it was forced upon them and people said that they aren't being given the opportunity, put them in the top league (even though they weren't good enough to win the second division). Now they are still terrible but they can't be dropped from the top division. It hasn't gained them any fans, it has just gained them disdain and no one believes in them or think they deserve it.

If you force it on a ref who hasn't shown they are up to standard, the most likely outcome is everyone thinking you're incompetent and no one really respecting you (and since they would most likely be the first Argentinian, people may label Argentinian refs as poor overall). Steve Walsh comes to mind.

I disagree.
How do you know someone isn't ready for something if you are so afraid of them failing you are not even willing to give them a chance to fail in the first place?

You cannot, i repeat, you cannot know whether someone is up to a challenge until the are actually given the chance to face it. All the rest is just speculation.
And to be fair, it's not as if the referees have been impeccable so far.
Again, i'm not asking them to be on the spotlight for the play-offs final. Any jaguares vs another team that can't make it to the play offs will do.

I try to be the last one to blame a referee or resort to conspiracy theories. I don't believe in that. Having said that, it does sound odd to play in a competition where all the refs are of the same nationalities of the teams we play against. I'm not saying they are against us, i'm just saying they are not doing enough to help us. Not the same thing.
We've been playing the RC since 2012(?). We haven't been able to produce one single referee that can officiate a SR game in 4 years? That's a hard sell.

And yes, mistakes will happen. That's how you improve. If you tell me that he would be taking the spot of a stellar, error free officiating machine, fair enough. That's not the case tho, is it?

 

[saulan]

I disagree.
How do you know someone isn't ready for something if you are so afraid of them failing you are not even willing to give them a chance to fail in the first place?

You cannot, i repeat, you cannot know whether someone is up to a challenge until the are actually given the chance to face it. All the rest is just speculation.
And to be fair, it's not as if the referees have been impeccable so far.
Again, i'm not asking them to be on the spotlight for the play-offs final. Any jaguares vs another team that can't make it to the play offs will do.

I try to be the last one to blame a referee or resort to conspiracy theories. I don't believe in that. Having said that, it does sound odd to play in a competition where all the refs are of the same nationalities of the teams we play against. I'm not saying they are against us, i'm just saying they are not doing enough to help us. Not the same thing.
We've been playing the RC since 2012(?). We haven't been able to produce one single referee that can officiate a SR game in 4 years? That's a hard sell.

And yes, mistakes will happen. That's how you improve. If you tell me that he would be taking the spot of a stellar, error free officiating machine, fair enough. That's not the case tho, is it?

I would rather Smartcooky answer that first part because my assumption (which is the case in Super Rugby and international matches) is that a referee is assessed based on their performances. If they aren't having great performances based on the reviews they receive then they should be given a chance to ref a Super Rugby match. I'm sure Smartcooky can give a better explanation of how these things work.

But I will say that you can know whether someone is up to a challenge. You assess their performances. We have a lot more refs in Currie Cup, Vodacom Cup, Varsity Cup, club rugby and even school boy rugby (which is where Jonathan Kaplan currently spends his Saturday afternoons) where refs are tested. There have been a number of times when watching a Currie Cup match I have thought that a ref shouldn't go up to ref at Super Rugby and I know that the reviewers deal with that.

On your point about the refs being away refs, I personally preferred the system where a neutral ref was used in previous seasons to prevent any idea of bias. I like that system more because then there is no calls of a ref being biased. In that case it is just a poor performance.

There is no such thing as a stellar, error free officiating machine, but I would much rather have a ref which is less likely to make a mistake, regardless of their nationality.

 

[FNS]

The ref was not good yet we still loosed by our own mistakes.

Landajo was fine. I hope i never see someone from Cuba on any coaching in any non amateur, they dont deseverve it.

 

[smartcooky]

@petite
My bad then, apologies.


Couldn't you argue that in order for them to get to the required level you need to give them some games to improve/test them? I'm not asking for them to ref the play-offs, but why not give them a more inconsequential (no offense) game, say something like Kings vs Jaguares (meaning we're both out already)?
I get what you are saying and partially agree, but i don't see how what's being done is going to help our refs get to that level.

Anselmi refereed in New Zealand in the National Provincial Championship in 2013, and Pastrana in Super Rugby in 2013 and 2014 but he was removed from the panel after he had an absolute shocker in the Blues v Cheetahs match in 2014.

Why does the UAR not ask NZRU if they can place a couple of Argentine referees in the NPC. Its only a 12 week competition.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I have no idea. I guess it's our fault then.

 

[Dark Horse]

To Cruz and the Argentinian guys.....do the players or management ever give interviews? Has anyone actually put their hand up and said that the season has been an unmitigated disaster or is it just a load of general cliches?

 

[FNS]

i just in the a rugby show they analysed the 5 first penalties. They were not penalty's the ref was looking to other side, wrong calls. One has to think if those were wrong how many more were? Not just the ref but the lineman that had clear view omitted them also. While its easy to judge after with slowmo we got screed. Nuff said.

@Darkhorse: Yes, theres a show called "Scrum" were short interviews are done(show is bias sometimes). Basically they were saying "yeah we lost, we were close, we need to keep getting experience but avoid rookie mistakes". This time some also remarked the "penalties" against.

 

[Dark Horse]

i just in the a rugby show they analysed the 5 first penalties. They were not penalty's the ref was looking to other side, wrong calls. One has to think if those were wrong how many more were? Not just the ref but the lineman that had clear view omitted them also. While its easy to judge after with slowmo we got screed. Nuff said.

@Darkhorse: Yes, theres a show called "Scrum" were short interviews are done(show is bias sometimes). Basically they were saying "yeah we lost, we were close, we need to keep getting experience but avoid rookie mistakes". This time some also remarked the "penalties" against.

Thanks FNS.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I have no idea. I guess it's our fault then.

Well yes it is your fault (UAR's fault). the total lack of a league like the Currie Cup and ITM Cup doesn't provide a good basis for Argentine referees to be measured at a required level. Instead they have to make use of going to other countries to referee matches and the 7's circuit. And even then, you still get referees who can't make the step up at Super Rugby level. A prime example is Pro Legoete. He has been on the Currie Cup panel year in and year out, but whenever he steps up to a Super Rugby match, he has a total shocker.

I think the UAR missed a big opportunity by not keeping the Pampas XV in the Currie Cup system and also get one or 2 refs to join the Pampas team in SA. And with saying that, I don't know what originally happened in the deal not being renewed.

If you want to be angry, be angry at the UAR.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Rugby and teh way people percieve the referee's performance is hugely intriguing to me. I actually thought the ref was a huge boost to the Jaguares' chances. Certainly there were a number of times the Sharks benefitted from the ref in that I think they sealed off a number of rucks where I felt they should've been blown up for them but crucially I felt the Jaguares were very lucky indeed to get the 2nd try which I felt wasn't a try at all and there were other intances where the Jaguares got a scrum where the laws as I understand them would've called for a penalty against them both on the Sharks' line. How Creevy escaped without even a penalty for pile driving Deysel into the ground is beyond me. The Sharks also recieved a yellow card for their first call of off-side in their 22 whereas the referee lectured and warned the Jaguares IE he was more harsh on the Sharks so I don't buy into the statements on here that the jaguares got the short end of the stick. It kinda felt like the ref were making up his own interpretations so as to not antagonize the crowd to me at times. A number of times the teams were clearing rucks from the side but only the Sharks got blown for this and only the once. Also I remember a Sharks player getting his hands on the ball once before a ruck had formed. He couldn't get it out as the player on the ground was holding tight and support did arrive shortly and rather than call for a penalty for the Sharks the ref told the Sharks player to release. Bizarre but it happens.

I guess hwat I am getting at is that I felt the referee performance was inconsistnet but certainly not deliberately bias or fully against any particular team. Off of that and the fact I am less than impressed with refereeing performances across the entire tournament and not just this season (even if I know I myself would certainly do worse I have to admit) I see no reason not to allow a couple of Argentine referees to cut their teeth in these games.

 

[Dark Horse]

It's unbelievable to me that this conversation has gravitated to the referee who was not at fault for the Jaguares' loss. They have nobody to blame but themselves and with 63% possession, couldn't score more tries. If they had made even just two less knocks ons in crucial try scoring positions, would we be talking about the referee?

 

[TRF_heineken]

It's unbelievable to me that this conversation has gravitated to the referee who was not at fault for the Jaguares' loss. They have nobody to blame but themselves and with 63% possession, couldn't score more tries. If they had made even just two less knocks ons in crucial try scoring positions, would we be talking about the referee?

Well that's what people do, blameshifting.

I have been guilty of this too, when my team played crappy, I tend to blame the referee, most of us saffas do that. But the Jaguares fans should just look at the Sharks last few matches to see that they can scrap out a victory just by defending the whole match.