[2016 Rugby Championship] South Africa v Argentina (20/08/2016)

[SomeOke]

Well I did say before the game that all I wanted to see was a bit of passion and desire from the team, and I was unfortunately disappointed.
Strauss, and Flouw are starting to look like passengers. Goosen and Jantjies folded under pressure and in general the team looked flat and tactically nowhere. Ironically enough Mohoje showed a ton of energy and made almost double the tackles of the next best Bok player, despite our complaining.

I'm not even sure what's wrong, I hope things improve and it's just down to this being a new team and coach!

 

[The Jones Boy]

The Boks are a top side, it was their first hit out for a while, they were a little ring rusty but it won't last long.
The Pumas are now a serious international team that demands respect on every outing, they are no push overs.
The Boks did well to get the win and it showed their fighting spirit.

 

[WaterboySA]

I hope the coach wakes up sometime. Jantjies is NOT the answer. He should've changed Goosen to 10 after 40 minutes and tried Jessie at fullback. He did not even try Marx. If you have options and you're too hard-assed to try it, you should look for another job!! The All Blacks are going to murderise us!

 

[George Ford]

Well I did say before the game that all I wanted to see was a bit of passion and desire from the team, and I was unfortunately disappointed.
Strauss, and Flouw are starting to look like passengers. Goosen and Jantjies folded under pressure and in general the team looked flat and tactically nowhere. Ironically enough Mohoje showed a ton of energy and made almost double the tackles of the next best Bok player, despite our complaining.

I'm not even sure what's wrong, I hope things improve and it's just down to this being a new team and coach!

Agreed - Mohoje was the standout performer with his attitude on defense and a couple of good carries. Pretty obvious Flo is still off the pace as Jaco Kriel's introduction basically swung it for us near the end !

Although some criticism on Elton is fair, I still think he deserves a lot of credit as he eventually pulled it together with his last 2 kicks. However, he might not be assured of his position if both Pollard & Lambie were fit. Goosen didn't have a special performance, but a clear better showing than Willie Le Roux.

I still feel our combinations weren't clicking. Lood De Jager & Damian De Allende are lacking in form and ditto for the likes of Flo. Almost fluffed my beer when AC said something to the effect of the plan was for the impact of our bench to win us the game. Inadvertently he is admitting to wanting to be behind 70 mins into the game!

He has had 4 games now to get his team selections & combinations going, no more excuses of this being a new unit and testing combinations. Feels like he is just making excuses every time.

Also - I think law regarding contestable kicks in the air needs to be revised. Habana's yellow was unwarranted. That Argentinian player knew he needed only a touch to angle his body and win a foul. This is not football!

 

[unrated]

Also - I think law regarding contestable kicks in the air needs to be revised. Habana's yellow was unwarranted. That Argentinian player knew he needed only a touch to angle his body and win a foul. This is not football!

Agreed. Although i actually think they revised the rule in the last two weeks? Didn't the commentator mention something in the lines of (regarding the Habana yellow) "if that happened a week ago then it would not have been a yellow but under the new law variations it is" . If it was not the Springbok game then im pretty sure if was in the Sharks vs Boland game.

 

[saulan]

"if that happened a week ago then it would not have been a yellow but under the new law variations it is" .

They said about Lionel Mapoe's knock on over the try line (saying it would have been a try two weeks ago but under the new law variations, anything that looks like a knock on is a knock on).

 

[unrated]

They said about Lionel Mapoe's knock on over the try line (saying it would have been a try two weeks ago but under the new law variations, anything that looks like a knock on is a knock on).

Oh yes. That was what i was thinking about . Thanks! Thought i was going crazy as i re watched the Habana incident and the commentator said nothing of the sort. Then watched the Sharks game and could not find anything either.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

My thoughts on the game;

How is this Pumas side not performing like this for the Jaguares? Does the backroom setup and/or jersey make that much of a difference?

I am happy with our scrum dominance though its not totally unexpected with Ayerza being unavailable to the Pumas and the form of our tighteads during SR. Think Koch put to bed the gremlins of that game in Argentina where Ayerza (illegally I have to add) tore him apart two years ago and where Heynecke Meyer didn't have the balls/nouse to recognize it wasn't the player's fault and didn't show faith Koch from then on.

On the scrum/ tight 5 its fair to say Mtawarira, Strauss and De Jager are there ahead of Kitshoff, Marx and PSdT only because of being default selections certainly not on form. I think we all knew this going in and it showed. Same with Louw vs Kriel but I am happy to say Mohoje stepped up. I was not impressed with his and Louw's selection ahead of Kriel. I knw Mohoje doesn't make a lot of mistakes (okay so he slipped going in to make ~3 tackles but at times it felt like he was the only one looking to go make tackles rather than wait for it) but my major gripe was his lack of impact but he stepped up his workrate and I commend him for that. I still feel we need more at blindside though but the options are all either overseas and at the wrong end of their carreers (Smith and Alberts) or upcoming and yet to prove themselves in SR (Mohoje, JL du Preez, Ackermann, Kirsten). Until that time I am happy enough to let Mohoje have a go if he can keep up the good work. When he is fit again I would like to see if only as an experiment a line-up of Kriel, Coetzee and Whiteley. I think because both Kriel and Coetzee are able carriers f the ball it shouldn't hurt us to run with two opensides?

Faf is our MVP just because it drops off from there since it looks like Hougaard is out of favor? I do think we can get huge value from Hougie though at either 11 or on the bench. Jantjies and Goosen were a mixed bag but I am happy enough considering Jantjies is the only man standing and Goosen isn't Le Roux. Maybe have a try with Goose at 10 and Jesse Kriel at 15 just for the sake of having a look and developing options past Le Roux at 15? Jantjies might do better off the bench as well? Maybe even have Hougaard on the wing and give Combrinck a run at 15?

Our midfield is horrible. Off form and unbalanced. We all knew this going in I suppose. Hope AC has it in him to work on this.

We are all going to get slaughtered by the ABs. I don't think they are so much a step up but rather we all are a step down. How good was Barret?! Maybe if we can put him under pressure and be more urgent (and clinical) we might have a chance. Big maybe and might though.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Managed to watch the game sober last night with a babelas (hangover). Have to say that Elton was the poorest player on the field for the Springboks for me and he was almost just as crap as he was in the Super Rugby final. Which makes me think that he is knuckling under the pressure and doesn't have BMT whatsoever. Sure he had a good run in the first half that lead to Combrink's try, but that was about it. He was poor on defence, worse at kicking goal and ever worse than that with the handling.

On the game itself, it was great to see our scrums demolish the Argentine pack, which makes me believe that we will do the same to the Aussies and the Kiwis if the Super Rugby is anything to go by. That is one area where we have improved in heaps and bounds.

Seems like the pitch (grass) itself made it very hard for the players, seems like the moisture on the grass made the ball extra slippery, but it was still no excuse for our poor handling.

I'm just glad that Oupa showed his value in the defence department. The more he plays in the bok jersey, the more he shows that he's better than Kolisi. He makes the step up every time it is asked of him. I agree on the sentiments on Lood and Flouw. They were rather pedestrian in their showing on the weekend. I think PSDT and Kriel should start the next match, and perhaps bring in Mostert in Lood's place.

Pity that Redelinghuys got injured, but glad that Koch got his chance and showed how good he actually is in the scrums.

This match showed that if you fill the team with just Lions players, and expect them to play like they do for the Lions, you won't get the same result.

If it was up to me I'd drop Elton, Flouw, Lood and Mapoe entirely for the next match. Especially Elton.

The Bachelor party was awesome though!

 

[saulan]

Faf is our MVP just because it drops off from there since it looks like Hougaard is out of favor?

I read somewhere that he is still injured after the sevens. Here is a an article on the injury:
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/hougaard-injury-worry-for-boks-20160816

 

[XIII]

Wow Facundo Isa is such a beast, he needs to be polished and then he is going to be top 3 easy. Also, anybody knows why Imhoff isn't on the team?, altough i think that Cordero and Montero are really good wingers, Imhoff is the best.

Regarding the Boks, Mapoe has done quite the oposite of what i tought he could do, however i think it comes down to the lack of chemistry between De Allende and him, i had thought that both of them would have benefited by playing together but it seems i was wrong. I have a question about the quotas, a few years back i think that the Boks were forced to place a 7.5 instead of a 9 (the grades are just to explain me better), but this year, from the games that i saw, I thought that there were enough black players to diminish the impact of the quota, forcing the Boks to place a 8.5 instead of a 9, something bad but not as before. But looking at the selections of quotas, dont you think AC is making things worse?, by picking the wrong black fellas, i meant.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I forgot to mention that I'm baffled that Sanchez got away with that hit on De Klerk when Goosen scored the try.

It was late, without arms and above the horizontal. Not even cited????? surely it's an off-field yellow at least...

 

[SomeOke]

Wow Facundo Isa is such a beast, he needs to be polished and then he is going to be top 3 easy. Also, anybody knows why Imhoff isn't on the team?, altough i think that Cordero and Montero are really good wingers, Imhoff is the best.

Regarding the Boks, Mapoe has done quite the oposite of what i tought he could do, however i think it comes down to the lack of chemistry between De Allende and him, i had thought that both of them would have benefited by playing together but it seems i was wrong. I have a question about the quotas, a few years back i think that the Boks were forced to place a 7.5 instead of a 9 (the grades are just to explain me better), but this year, from the games that i saw, I thought that there were enough black players to diminish the impact of the quota, forcing the Boks to place a 8.5 instead of a 9, something bad but not as before. But looking at the selections of quotas, dont you think AC is making things worse?, by picking the wrong black fellas, i meant.

I honestly don't think we can use quota's as an excuse this game.
The quota players that most people would agree don't deserve to be in the team are: Mohoje, Paige, Mbonambi, Mohoje was one of our best players and the latter two didn't really play a role at all.

What I was most annoyed by was the incumbent boks lack of work rate and passion. Louw, Strauss, Lood and even Etzebeth were quiet and not their usual selves (other than at scrum time). I actually thought DdA and Mapoe were fine, at least DdA was passing more (3 carries and 7 passes), I think it's still fair to give them some time. Ultimately I thought the play-makers let the rest of our backs down (Elton and Goosen) and our attack looked flat because of it, they both looked very uncomfortable, and while I'm willing to give Goosen a pass, having only been in the Bok set-up for a week, Elton really needs to pull off some consistent performances our he's going to get replaced by someone with a better temperament.

 

[ianw16]

We are all going to get slaughtered by the ABs. I don't think they are so much a step up but rather we all are a step down.

By definition, if you are a step down from someone, then it follows that they are a step up! I'm struggling to think of a team that has had an equivalent record of 60 wins from the last 65 played, over a period of 5 years. Perhaps what you meant was that in that period the ABs have gone up a step, while the rest have slipped down a step or two?

 

[saulan]

I forgot to mention that I'm baffled that Sanchez got away with that hit on De Klerk when Goosen scored the try.

It was late, without arms and above the horizontal. Not even cited????? surely it's an off-field yellow at least...

I don't know what the laws are on it, but De Klerk did unintentionally jump into that tackle which helped the spinning. I really don't know what the rules state on situations like that.

 

[SomeOke]

By definition, if you are a step down from someone, then it follows that they are a step up! I'm struggling to think of a team that has had an equivalent record of 60 wins from the last 65 played, over a period of 5 years. Perhaps what you meant was that in that period the ABs have gone up a step, while the rest have slipped down a step or two?

What he's saying that from 2010 onwards, the ABs have been the best in the world and they have never really gone down a tier, despite changes in players and SA and AUS have.
So in 2011 AB's were a 9.5/10, Boks were a 9 and Aus were a 8.5.

Now in 2016 AB's are still a 9.5/10 but Boks are like a 7.5 and Aus are like a 7. All Blacks haven't necessarily got better, but they have remained constantly great while everyone else gets worse around them, I think it's a fair comment.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I honestly don't think we can use quota's as an excuse this game.
The quota players that most people would agree don't deserve to be in the team are: Mohoje, Paige, Mbonambi, Mohoje was one of our best players and the latter two didn't really play a role at all.

What I was most annoyed by was the incumbent boks lack of work rate and passion. Louw, Strauss, Lood and even Etzebeth were quiet and not their usual selves (other than at scrum time). I actually thought DdA and Mapoe were fine, at least DdA was passing more (3 carries and 7 passes), I think it's still fair to give them some time. Ultimately I thought the play-makers let the rest of our backs down (Elton and Goosen) and our attack looked flat because of it, they both looked very uncomfortable, and while I'm willing to give Goosen a pass, having only been in the Bok set-up for a week, Elton really needs to pull off some consistent performances our he's going to get replaced by someone with a better temperament.

This! I think Goosen, under the circumstances played really well in getting to grips to the Tempo we now play than 3 years ago when he last played in South Africa. DDA was a bit shoddy on defence, and I wonder if the previous criticism of him not passing, actually played against his ability to beat the defenders. I thought at times when he got the ball, he shouldn't have passed.

As for Mapoe, he was MIA apart from the try he didn't score. and that's why I criticise him. The one thing he had to do was to ground that ball, and yet he blew it. If he had scored that try, I think the final scoreboard would've looked a lot differently. We would have had a big lead, and instead of playing catch-up, we would have controlled the game more.

 

[ianw16]

What he's saying that from 2010 onwards, the ABs have been the best in the world and they have never really gone down a tier, despite changes in players and SA and AUS have.
So in 2011 AB's were a 9.5/10, Boks were a 9 and Aus were a 8.5.

Now in 2016 AB's are still a 9.5/10 but Boks are like a 7.5 and Aus are like a 7. All Blacks haven't necessarily got better, but they have remained constantly great while everyone else gets worse around them, I think it's a fair comment.

I think you'll find most AB fans would say that the 2015 WC team were better than the 2011 WC team. And, although it's early days, the current crop can improve even further. To paraphrase the ABs mantra - you go nowhere by standing still! We'll know more after injuries work themselves out, particularly in the centres; but, amazingly, the losses of our 7 & 10 really don't bother me too much.
Other teams will tend to have an up and down cycle every few years, but they rarely seem to keep it going for a sustained period. Hansen & co certainly won't be using a philosophy of "let's keep it where it is guys, and just hope the rest continuing being mediocre."

However, I've probably dragged this thread somewhat off-topic!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

By definition, if you are a step down from someone, then it follows that they are a step up! I'm struggling to think of a team that has had an equivalent record of 60 wins from the last 65 played, over a period of 5 years. Perhaps what you meant was that in that period the ABs have gone up a step, while the rest have slipped down a step or two?

My meaning was each team in relation to themselves IE that the gulf is not due to NZ being better than they were but the rest being at lower points than in the recent past.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I forgot to mention that I'm baffled that Sanchez got away with that hit on De Klerk when Goosen scored the try.

It was late, without arms and above the horizontal. Not even cited????? surely it's an off-field yellow at least...

Well, to be honest, i couldn't help remembering of Leolin Zas (Stormers vs Waratahs) when i saw how Habana accidentally hit Cordero.