[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[The Jones Boy]

Wales big problem is Gatland.
He can make Wales organised defensively and hard to beat but he does not conjure forth the natural flair and attacking talent they possess.
Once Wales stopped playing the formula and started playing what was in front of them the flood gates opened and the width came into their game where they have great runners and attackers.
Gatland has done well for Wales but now they need a coach who can let them off the leash before the 70 minute mark.

 

[dullonien]

Well this Marler incident should be dealt with carefully. The word "gypsy" to my knowledge is not in itself offensive, it is the name of the group in the same way we are "English". Are we going to say going "oi *Group name* boy" is now a racist? Oi English boy, racist? Nobody would agree. I don't doubt Marler intended to cause offense but I don't see how the phrase "oi Gypsy boy" is racist. We could get the the stage where it becomes racist to refer to anyone by the actual name of their nationality. Think if you address someone from Pakistan as "Pakistani", there will be calls of racism despite it being the actual name of that persons nationality.

Surely Lee's nationality is Welsh?

Francis incident was much worse on second viewing. Expect a lengthy ban there to match Ashton's.

 

[ncurd]

Verbal abuse of a player based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation or otherwise carries a minimum sanction of a four-week suspension.

Gypsy is ethnic group but Sampson Lee is also Welsh. But the entire thing is covered here.

Let's be clear though Marler must be at the extreme low end here may only get 2 weeks (I think they can halve the suspension for guilt, remorse). But let's clear he essentially has already plead guilty. I've no idea why World Rugby are still investigating.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The Francis incident was nothing.
It must be viewed in normal time and it was definitely a yellow card. Any swipe at a prone players face should be...
Nothing was near the eyes. He scraped the players nose.
Yellow card.
Trying to intimate that he was going for the eyes is a stretch way too far.
The angle he was approaching from meant that the eyes would never be a viable target. He was looking to cuff the bloke in the face, and he did, and he got pinged for it.
So he should.
Cheap shots are not welcome in the game.
However, trying to stretch that out to make a claim that he was gouging, or even trying to gouge the prone players eyes, thats a stretch way too far.
Looked nothing of the kind to me.

 

[Maverick1987]

The Francis incident was nothing.
It must be viewed in normal time and it was definitely a yellow card. Any swipe at a prone players face should be...
Nothing was near the eyes. He scraped the players nose.
Yellow card.
Trying to intimate that he was going for the eyes is a stretch way too far.
The angle he was approaching from meant that the eyes would never be a viable target. He was looking to cuff the bloke in the face, and he did, and he got pinged for it.
So he should.
Cheap shots are not welcome in the game.
However, trying to stretch that out to make a claim that he was gouging, or even trying to gouge the prone players eyes, thats a stretch way too far.
Looked nothing of the kind to me.

Personally I think Marler and Francis should both be banned . Marler's punch/forearm was a cheap shot and Francis was at the very least reckless where he put his hands even if there was no intent . That's what Ashton got banned for 10 weeks for

 

[valley commando]

Wales big problem is Gatland.
He can make Wales organised defensively and hard to beat but he does not conjure forth the natural flair and attacking talent they possess.
Once Wales stopped playing the formula and started playing what was in front of them the flood gates opened and the width came into their game where they have great runners and attackers.
Gatland has done well for Wales but now they need a coach who can let them off the leash before the 70 minute mark.

I beg to differ, Howley is Wales big problem.

 

[profitius]

I beg to differ, Howley is Wales big problem.

Not much Howley can do with players like Cuthbert. He can't turn piano carriers into piano players.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Well this Marler incident should be dealt with carefully. The word "gypsy" to my knowledge is not in itself offensive, it is the name of the group in the same way we are "English". Are we going to say going "oi *Group name* boy" is now a racist? Oi English boy, racist? Nobody would agree. I don't doubt Marler intended to cause offense but I don't see how the phrase "oi Gypsy boy" is racist. We could get the the stage where it becomes racist to refer to anyone by the actual name of their nationality. Think if you address someone from Pakistan as "Pakistani", there will be calls of racism despite it being the actual name of that persons nationality.

It isn't the words that are racist but the context and the TONE in which the words are used. The word black isn't racist but if its used offesnively, and I don't need to include examples here, then it becomes racist. Is anyone trying to say that Marler, in all his wisdom used that phrase with the word gypsy, not intending it to offend? Of course he did. It sure as hell wasn't a term of endearment that he used. And the apology was only because he realised the storm that was about to ensue. Along with EJ words. He should get the full brunt of any punishment that can be handied out. As should anyone, of any natinality for voicing racist language.

 

[Thingimubob]

Thinking back if I was Welsh id be seriously worried about the first 60 minutes being papered over by the last 10 . They should make no mistake the first half was as bad as I've seen Wales play for a decade . They were simply awful . Biggar got shown up to be what I expected eventually which is someone who was riding a wave of good form rather than the messiah the Welsh made him out to be .

1) No one (sensible) is papering over the cracks, we all know that it was an awful performance in the first 60 or so. Easily the worst half of rugby we've played in a decade.

2) Biggar was one of our few stand out players so not sure where you're getting that he's been "shown up for what he is" . Yeah we looked better in attack in the last few mins with Priestland, but Biggar had zero help from his outside backs previous to that, and Webb's service improved us massively too. Biggar seriously looked like the one of the only players giving a crap out there at times.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

It isn't the words that are racist but the context and the TONE in which the words are used. The word black isn't racist but if its used offesnively, and I don't need to include examples here, then it becomes racist. Is anyone trying to say that Marler, in all his wisdom used that phrase with the word gypsy, not intending it to offend? Of course he did. It sure as hell wasn't a term of endearment that he used. And the apology was only because he realised the storm that was about to ensue. Along with EJ words. He should get the full brunt of any punishment that can be handied out. As should anyone, of any natinality for voicing racist language.

Not having all of that. Are you some how omnipotent in that you actually know Marler's motivation for A. Making the remark and B. Apologising for it?

It is clear from the general lack of clarity even within this forum to exactly how offensive "Gypsy boy" is. I completely agree that Marler was on thin ice having said it and that it would have been used antagonistically. However, there also a possibility that Marler didn't realise how far over a line he'd crossed. Being confronted with that and making an immediate apology is not a precedent that has always been followed. I'm thinking for example of Luis Suarez"s ludicrous defence when caught abusing Evra.

If he'd called him a pinheaded ginger xxxx how much less offensive would it have been?

 

[The5thOfficial]

Not having all of that. Are you some how omnipotent in that you actually know Marler's motivation for A. Making the remark and B. Apologising for it?

It is clear from the general lack of clarity even within this forum to exactly how offensive "Gypsy boy" is. I completely agree that Marler was on thin ice having said it and that it would have been used antagonistically. However, there also a possibility that Marler didn't realise how far over a line he'd crossed. Being confronted with that and making an immediate apology is not a precedent that has always been followed. I'm thinking for example of Luis Suarez"s ludicrous defence when caught abusing Evra.

If he'd called him a pinheaded ginger xxxx how much less offensive would it have been?

100% we all know what Marler's motivation was in making the comment. First and foremost to get a reaction and to do that he had to offend the guy he was aiming his remarks at. Same with the apology. After the fact! Too little too late. "possibility that Marler didn't realise how far over the line he'd crossed" Just NO to that. Of course he knew! He may have said it in the heat of battle as it were - hence the apology. But the damage had been done by then. Fair play to EJ for reminding him of his responsibilities as an international rugby player.

Offensive is a subjective thing. What may be offensive to you may not be to me and vice versa. If a person is offended by something someone says, it doesn't have to be racist, it can be just offensive. So your last comment is null and void on that, with respect, sorry!

 

[Groundhog]

My sympathy for travellers is pretty low to be honest given I live 5 minutes from one of their sites and seen all the crap they get up to, but gypsy was said to cause offence. I mean he didn't call him a pikey, which would be pretty black and white, but yeah he didn't say it as a term of endearment. Travellers have a pretty protected status under the law here in Ireland in discrimination terms, which they use to sue anyone who offends them, but not sure how the citing comission will view it. I mean Marler basically already admitted he messed up.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

100% we all know what Marler's motivation was in making the comment. First and foremost to get a reaction and to do that he had to offend the guy he was aiming his remarks at. Same with the apology. After the fact! Too little too late. "possibility that Marler didn't realise how far over the line he'd crossed" Just NO to that. Of course he knew! He may have said it in the heat of battle as it were - hence the apology. But the damage had been done by then. Fair play to EJ for reminding him of his responsibilities as an international rugby player.

Offensive is a subjective thing. What may be offensive to you may not be to me and vice versa. If a person is offended by something someone says, it doesn't have to be racist, it can be just offensive. So your last comment is null and void on that, with respect, sorry!

But it appears to be not subjective if people decide that a protected class are involved? This is a fraught area but rough language is oft used on the field of play. We've seen great strides in this area over the years with rugby pretty much at the vanguard. However, only the most one eyed would suggest that the fair treatment of the Romany traveller community had the same traction in general society as the treatment of visible ethnicity or say homophobia. If the discriminatory police really decide to get stuck in use of many of the more colourful female anatomy based words will also have to cease.

Marler's an idiot who's said something stupid. He should be punished. But ignorance is not the same as malice. Unless you can prove the latter throwing the book is disproportionate.

 

[profitius]

Sticks and stones can break your bones but names are very hurtful. So when someone calls you a name, run to your parents or the teacher and report it at once. The parent/teacher can then join in on the outrage and make a huge deal of it, contacting various people who in turn contacts others seeking advice. Now that's efficient use of resources!


Shrugging your shoulders and not giving a **** what others say is, like, sooooo backwards. The heroic PC brigade have your back and theyre looking to be outraged so they'll come running to your rescue when someone (except Muslims) says a bad word. What a wonderful age we live in

 

[Saint4805]

Marler's an idiot who's said something stupid. He should be punished. But ignorance is not the same as malice. Unless you can prove the latter throwing the book is disproportionate.

To your point about Luis Suarez, I believe that this was more ignorance than malice. South American people often refer to someone's skin colour as a cultural term of endearment rather than a racial slur with malice attached to it. This is no defence for what he said because making such a remark in the UK is absolutely not acceptable and ignorance is no excuse but the media and the authorities hung him out to dry as an evil racist without looking at the whole picture.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But it appears to be not subjective if people decide that a protected class are involved? This is a fraught area but rough language is oft used on the field of play. We've seen great strides in this area over the years with rugby pretty much at the vanguard. However, only the most one eyed would suggest that the fair treatment of the Romany traveller community had the same traction in general society as the treatment of visible ethnicity or say homophobia. If the discriminatory police really decide to get stuck in use of many of the more colourful female anatomy based words will also have to cease.

Marler's an idiot who's said something stupid. He should be punished. But ignorance is not the same as malice. Unless you can prove the latter throwing the book is disproportionate.

It's not something you should be ignorant to, especially in today's world. If he'd said gay boy to a homosexual, black boy, Abo or anything like that he'd be in for a significant ban and this should be no different.

 

[ncurd]

Sticks and stones can break your bones but names are very hurtful.

Okay I'm going to focus on that as I was extensively bullied at school to the extent at 31 I still have nightmares about it now. It only broke out in severe physical violence once (where a kid thought it was perfectly acceptable to follow me home and then precede to kick my head in literally) but constant verbal abuse did a number on me psychologically to the extent at some points I simply didn't want to go to school because I couldn't take it anymore.

People can argue any two ways about name calling but the attitude it makes you harder ****ing stinks. An adult can manage it but children rarely do and that does have effect on their later life.

So yeah I have a real problem when people bandy about PC brigade and all that touchy feely crap to try to dismiss it but the reality is it is a problem and schools/parents shouldn't tolerate that behaviour.

When you've been subjected to it on an almost daily basis for 12 years I'll let you have opinion. Until then think before you speak.

- - - Updated - - -

In other news Marler unsurprisingly cited for striking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35802422

Yeah he'd definitely not playing in Paris

 

[profitius]

Okay I'm going to focus on that as I was extensively bullied at school to the extent at 31 I still have nightmares about it now. It only broke out in severe physical violence once (where a kid thought it was perfectly acceptable to follow me home and then precede to kick my head in literally) but constant verbal abuse did a number on me psychologically to the extent at some points I simply didn't want to go to school because I couldn't take it anymore.

People can argue any two ways about name calling but the attitude it makes you harder ****ing stinks. An adult can manage it but children rarely do and that does have effect on their later life.

So yeah I have a real problem when people bandy about PC brigade and all that touchy feely crap to try to dismiss it but the reality is it is a problem and schools/parents shouldn't tolerate that behaviour.

When you've been subjected to it on an almost daily basis for 12 years I'll let you have opinion. Until then think before you speak.

- - - Updated - - -

In other news Marler unsurprisingly cited for striking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35802422

Yeah he'd definitely not playing in Paris

And what did your parents say to you?

 

[ncurd]

@smartcooky

Can you clarify if Cole's bin should of been reversed?

Full line of events.

1) Cole brings down the maul. Penalty given
2) Cole is 'touched' in the face by Francis
3) Cole is binned for repeat offending by the team.
4) On TMO advice the penalty is reversed due to the action of Francis.

Due to penalty being reversed should the bin of stayed? I'm 100% sure I've seen it happen before but it may have been different circumstances. As a side question had Francis been binned like he should of done (I think only nut jobs are arguing it was a penalty only) would that made a difference as well.

Just wanted clarity as we didn't seam too clear at the time.

 

[ncurd]

And what did your parents say to you?

What do you mean by that?

This is a massively complex subject area (possibly needs to be seperate thread) and I know my own case is as well. Does it matter what my paents did? The reality is the kids carry on once they have a target and telling kids to 'man up' from constant abuse doesn't work. I think my Mum told me the poem when I was very young (and the problem was relentless back that) but it doesn't work and all saying stuff like that does is make the kids pick on you even further.


I know this incredibly different thing but do you blame a rape victim for being raped? We live in a culture where when it comes to abuse some people have tedency to blame the victim rather the abuser.

My school had a 'no blame' policy? What 'no blame' on people who persitantly tried to make feel as mall as they humanly could? Yeah what a load of horse****.