[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[Genghis]

Well back to the game.

After having taken loads of banter from all the England supporters in the pub for 60 minutes, it all went very quiet towards the end! It would have been England's worst nightmare to get burgled yet again by Wales in Twickenham. It wasn't to be though, as we werentt given a steady stream of kickable penalties to keep us within touching distance this time.

I thought England were excellent for 60 minutes, they were hungry, applied huge pressure, dominated the set piece and also played with some wit and imagination. They certainly deserved to win the match.

I was actually physically angry that Wales seemed to have not turned up. Definite credit should go to England here, as they moved the ball away from contact, didn't engage with Warrenball and were so fast that our blitz defence seriously misfired. Wales missed more tackles in that half alone than they have in the last 8 entire games ..... But I still have the p feeling that our play was unacceptably poor. Was it complacency? Arrogance? Did they think they just had to hang tough and they would come back at the end? Too stagnant with the current management regime? No idea, but something was seriously wrong with the team psyche.

only a few players stood up to be counted and England really had their tails up.

A few final thoughts;

- the yellow card was always going to come. It doesn't matter who it went to, I think Joubert was showing the next transgressor a yellow regardless.
- Priestland is a better attacking 10 than Biggar. He freed the backs much better and we tore England apart at the end. We seem to fixated on being a great defensive side. When we do cut loose we looked pretty lethal out there. I accept England were a man down, but that wouldn't normally see such an avalanche.
- Marler should be cited and receive a ban. What stupid behaviour, and thoroughly nasty.
- North wasn't in touch at the end, but as soon as you begin to think about one call as the reason you lose an 80 minute game, you're barking up the wrong tree. Ditto regarding th comments about a forward pass, as Ngland should have been out of sight by then.
- Wales and their coaches aren't suddenly a bad side. I hate seeing Wales fans getting personal towards Alex Cuthbert. I doubt TV critics and fans would have had a better game than him out there. We always seem to want a scapegoat, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhys Priestland refused to play for us after the disgusting behaviour of our so called fans.
- neither are England suddenly a great side. They combusted at the end and were all over the place. Equally they couldn't make their dominance count on the scoreboard. A good result, played well overall and the coaches still have some work to do.

I'm seriously gutted, but well done England. They were the better side overall, they seemed to want it more and it would have been a bit of a travesty if we had nicked it. .

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sorry for the long post! I had this on my mind a lot!!

I will try to break future posts up or be more brief :redcard:

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Well back to the game.

After having taken loads of banter from all the England supporters in the pub for 60 minutes, it all went very quiet towards the end! It would have been England's worst nightmare to get burgled yet again by Wales in Twickenham. It wasn't to be though, as we werentt given a steady stream of kickable penalties to keep us within touching distance this time.

I thought England were excellent for 60 minutes, they were hungry, applied huge pressure, dominated the set piece and also played with some wit and imagination. They certainly deserved to win the match.

I was actually physically angry that Wales seemed to have not turned up. Definite credit should go to England here, as they moved the ball away from contact, didn't engage with Warrenball and were so fast that our blitz defence seriously misfired. Wales missed more tackles in that half alone than they have in the last 8 entire games ..... But I still have the p feeling that our play was unacceptably poor. Was it complacency? Arrogance? Did they think they just had to hang tough and they would come back at the end? Too stagnant with the current management regime? No idea, but something was seriously wrong with the team psyche.

only a few players stood up to be counted and England really had their tails up.

A few final thoughts;

- the yellow card was always going to come. It doesn't matter who it went to, I think Joubert was showing the next transgressor a yellow regardless.
- Priestland is a better attacking 10 than Biggar. He freed the backs much better and we tore England apart at the end. We seem to fixated on being a great defensive side. When we do cut loose we looked pretty lethal out there. I accept England were a man down, but that wouldn't normally see such an avalanche.
- Marler should be cited and receive a ban. What stupid behaviour, and thoroughly nasty.
- North wasn't in touch at the end, but as soon as you begin to think about one call as the reason you lose an 80 minute game, you're barking up the wrong tree. Ditto regarding th comments about a forward pass, as Ngland should have been out of sight by then.
- Wales and their coaches aren't suddenly a bad side. I hate seeing Wales fans getting personal towards Alex Cuthbert. I doubt TV critics and fans would have had a better game than him out there. We always seem to want a scapegoat, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhys Priestland refused to play for us after the disgusting behaviour of our so called fans.
- neither are England suddenly a great side. They combusted at the end and were all over the place. Equally they couldn't make their dominance count on the scoreboard. A good result, played well overall and the coaches still have some work to do.

I'm seriously gutted, but well done England. They were the better side overall, they seemed to want it more and it would have been a bit of a travesty if we had nicked it. .

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sorry for the long post! I had this on my mind a lot!!

I will try to break future posts up or be more brief :redcard:

I agree with a lot of this, but Alex Cuthbert really is terrible, he has been for a long time, and should not be allowed to play for Wales again.

 

[AzaMatt]

I agree with a lot of this, but Alex Cuthbert really is terrible, he has been for a long time, and should not be allowed to play for Wales again.

yea enough is enough now. it is embarrassing. we could literally select any other winger in wales and they would be better than him at the moment. i'll be shocked if he doesnt get dropped this weekend

 

[bertiec]

It isn't the words that are racist but the context and the TONE in which the words are used. The word black isn't racist but if its used offesnively, and I don't need to include examples here, then it becomes racist. Is anyone trying to say that Marler, in all his wisdom used that phrase with the word gypsy, not intending it to offend? Of course he did. It sure as hell wasn't a term of endearment that he used. And the apology was only because he realised the storm that was about to ensue. Along with EJ words. He should get the full brunt of any punishment that can be handied out. As should anyone, of any natinality for voicing racist language.

In that case I was deeply offended by England being called cheats, can we have that statement looked at please. The man is stupid for not having the grey matter to control his gob. Him Hartley and a few others should not be in an international team as far as I am concerned, but, this is being blown up a bit. The arm and the gouge should carry the full force of the citing board, but sticks and stones? If people did not bite it would happen a bit less and in my opinion should be policed by team they are playing for.

 

[valley commando]

Not much Howley can do with players like Cuthbert. He can't turn piano carriers into piano players.

Cuthbert must of caught Howley or Gats in a compromising position, honestly can't think of any reason other than blackmail to him getting selected time after time, Amos or Eli Walker anyday over Cuthbert, alternately Anscombe at 15 and Liam W on the wing.

 

[SelimNiai]

In that case I was deeply offended by England being called cheats, can we have that statement looked at please. The man is stupid for not having the grey matter to control his gob. Him Hartley and a few others should not be in an international team as far as I am concerned, but, this is being blown up a bit. The arm and the gouge should carry the full force of the citing board, but sticks and stones? If people did not bite it would happen a bit less and in my opinion should be policed by team they are playing for.

I hope I'm reading that wrong because that sounds like youre saying it's Lee's fault for getting offended?

 

[titans12]

By modern standards what marler said was stupid and will probably get a ban , no complaints here, but I feel its a sad reflection on pc modern life where everyone has to be terribly nice to everyone else or else . I also think it was lazy of marler as lee lends himself to endless more humerous p--- takes . I worked in bridgend in 1985 for a year and was called an English c--- so often I began to think it was my name . I also had my head kicked in twice for speaking with a Yorkshire accent ( my fault entirely) End result I wont go to Wales ever again . No tears no bitterness , just avoid the place . If this pc trend continues will teams have to say please before they turn over the ball incase it offends . Im sure Lee has given as good as he gets on many occasions , im not saying it justifies what marler said , just that it happens every game to someone . btw I know what happened to me in Bridgend is not the fault of every Welsh person , it was just my unfortunate experience.

 

[Jimbo87]

Just putting this out there but there's a TV program call my big fat gypsy wedding is that racist? I appreciate he wasn't doing it in a nice manner or to be friendly but I am struggling to see how it can be called Racist if I call a Welsh player a Welsh boy mid game am I being racist? If he is not of gypsy origin and takes offense to be labelled as such does that then make him racist?

Where does all this pc nonsense end, looking forward to the responses as I play devils advocate.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Just putting this out there but there's a TV program call my big fat gypsy wedding is that racist? I appreciate he wasn't doing it in a nice manner or to be friendly but I am struggling to see how it can be called Racist if I call a Welsh player a Welsh boy mid game am I being racist? If he is not of gypsy origin and takes offense to be labelled as such does that then make him racist?

Where does all this pc nonsense end, looking forward to the responses as I play devils advocate.

Ahh but "Welsh Boy" isn't in the usual vain of derogatory comments used as when using *"Gypsy Boy" *"Black Boy" etc etc. *used for example purposes only.

 

[SelimNiai]

Just putting this out there but there's a TV program call my big fat gypsy wedding is that racist? I appreciate he wasn't doing it in a nice manner or to be friendly but I am struggling to see how it can be called Racist if I call a Welsh player a Welsh boy mid game am I being racist? If he is not of gypsy origin and takes offense to be labelled as such does that then make him racist?

Where does all this pc nonsense end, looking forward to the responses as I play devils advocate.

A lot of people saw that it was yes, there was plenty of negative press about it if I recall.

Lets get this clear now. Getting offended by a racial slur (which this was), is not "getting PC" or anything like that. It's a perfectly justifiable and understandable reaction to it.

 

[Jimbo87]

Ahh but "Welsh Boy" isn't in the usual vain of derogatory comments used as when using *"Gypsy Boy" *"Black Boy" etc etc. *used for example purposes only.

I disagree with your two examples gypsy is accepted as an ethnic group, is black?

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A lot of people saw that it was yes, there was plenty of negative press about it if I recall.

Lets get this clear now. Getting offended by a racial slur (which this was), is not "getting PC" or anything like that. It's a perfectly justifiable and understandable reaction to it.

Lets get this clear, Gypsy is not in itself racial slur but can be considered controversial, if you are going to get technical please ensure you are factually correct

 

[The5thOfficial]

I disagree with your two examples gypsy is accepted as an ethnic group, is black?

I wasn't talking ethnic groups, I was talking about offensive and derogatory remarks of which "Black Boy" could be to some, one.

 

[Jimbo87]

I wasn't talking ethnic groups, I was talking about offensive and derogatory remarks of which "Black Boy" could be to some, one.

I fully agree black can and is however gypsy is not the two are not comparable in the context you used.

 

[SelimNiai]

I disagree with your two examples gypsy is accepted as an ethnic group, is black?

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Lets get this clear, Gypsy is not in itself racial slur but can be considered controversial, if you are going to get technical please ensure you are factually correct

I'm sorry but in this context it is. Thats the reason Marler has been cited. Thats the reason Eddie Jones has told him to, in effect, shut his mouth in future.

 

[ncurd]

Okay I'm going to be flippant

How about someone who thinks 'gypsy boy' isn't offensive go down the nearest traveller camp and see how well it goes down...

 

[Bluemoon]

Some of these opinions on here really worry me.

You are right. Being called a "Welsh boy" or an "Irish boy" is also an offence if you imply a negative connotation to it. Which is what Marler did. He wasn't just using it describe Lee, he used it an a derogatory manner, reinforcing the negative prejudices of the term (as in he was implying it was an insult).

This isn't about being politically correct, this is about being offensive and showing a lack of respect for an opponent on the field of play. Particularly at international level, playing as a role model with children and fans watching. I completely agree with Eddie's response to Marler, reminding him of the "responsibilities of an England player".

 

[Jimbo87]

Okay I'm going to be flippant

How about someone who thinks 'gypsy boy' isn't offensive go down the nearest traveller camp and see how well it goes down...

Ok where does it become offensive the use of the word Gypsy, the word boy stringing the two together or perhaps the tone and context in which they are used?

Tbf if my experience going to the nearest traveller camp and saying anything is pretty unlikely to go down particularly well.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

By modern standards what marler said was stupid and will probably get a ban , no complaints here, but I feel its a sad reflection on pc modern life where everyone has to be terribly nice to everyone else or else .

Huh? Are you saying that not insulting people and using racial slurs is "being terribly nice"?

There is a difference between overly PC and not being racist towards someone. This citing and consequent ban has no reflection on PC, it just has a reflection on a stupid, thoughtless remark.

 

[Jimbo87]

Huh? Are you saying that not insulting people and using racial slurs is "being terribly nice"?

There is a difference between overly PC and not being racist towards someone. This citing and consequent ban has no reflection on PC, it just has a reflection on a stupid, thoughtless remark.

Both points can be sympathised with however where do your draw the line, is a taller player calling a short player small in a certain offensive way a remark he should be sighted for perhaps the shorter man would be equally offended as someone on the receiving end of so called racial slur or is that acceptable because it isn't deemed racist?

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Both points can be sympathised with however where do your draw the line, is a taller player calling a short player small in a certain offensive way a remark he should be sighted for perhaps the shorter man would be equally offended as someone on the receiving end of so called racial slur or is that acceptable because it isn't deemed racist?

Well I think we can all agree that racism is wrong, correct? So as Marler made a racist remark he should be banned (and yes, Roma/Gypsy is a race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people albeit I'm referencing wikipedia if you actually read it and look at the sources you will see it to be true).

General insults, as far as I can tell, attacking the person as opposed to a larger group of people or a community are for the referee to judge. Sadly it's impossible to be objective about a person's feelings so you can't tell them if they should be offended or not, but I believe there is a difference to attacking the individual e.g. on the basis of height and attacking someone based on their heritage/community.