[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[Mumbles119]

It isn't the words that are racist but the context and the TONE in which the words are used. The word black isn't racist but if its used offesnively, and I don't need to include examples here, then it becomes racist. Is anyone trying to say that Marler, in all his wisdom used that phrase with the word gypsy, not intending it to offend? Of course he did. It sure as hell wasn't a term of endearment that he used. And the apology was only because he realised the storm that was about to ensue. Along with EJ words. He should get the full brunt of any punishment that can be handied out. As should anyone, of any natinality for voicing racist language.

Genuine question then, and not just aimed at you at all The5th...

Is using Pom, Paddy, Sweatie, Saes any different to this when being used with malice?

 

[Thingimubob]

@smartcooky

Can you clarify if Cole's bin should of been reversed?

Full line of events.

1) Cole brings down the maul. Penalty given
2) Cole is 'touched' in the face by Francis
3) Cole is binned for repeat offending by the team.
4) On TMO advice the penalty is reversed due to the action of Francis.

Due to penalty being reversed should the bin of stayed? I'm 100% sure I've seen it happen before but it may have been different circumstances. As a side question had Francis been binned like he should of done (I think only nut jobs are arguing it was a penalty only) would that made a difference as well.

Just wanted clarity as we didn't seam too clear at the time.

As far as I understand it, yellow card still stands as the infringement was still made. Yeah the penalty was (rightly) reversed but that doesn't wipe away the string of previous infringements that led to the yellow.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've always wanted Nowell over May, just think he's a much more level headed player, cleverer and better in contact, much better link play, safer under the high ball.

Him being gassed by North twice yesterday has got me worried. It's not exactly a terrible flaw to be slower than North, but I'd have backed May to make those tackles.

Nowell's looked fine in the other three games though, so who knows.

If England are going to blitz and rely on line speed, they might be better off with a real speed demon for when they are caught out by an overlap.

Forget North, Nowell has been burned off by club centres this season. That lack of pace will cost us in a big tight game one day. Quite happy if he was to be Brown's replacement, but at this level never a winger for me. I'm a May fan and before injury his all round game was improving at a similar rate to Kruis.

Wales have had a very stable team both on and off the pitch for a long time and it strikes me that the players have just been listening to the same voices for too long. What new can Gatland say to AWJ, Warbs etc that they haven't heard a hundred times before? They've got some very good players, but I think they just need a bit of reinvigorating. Everyone has a shelf life.

As for Lee, a Telegraph article to which he contributed last year, and was presumably happy with, described him as "of gypsy stock". If he was comfortable with that, then "Gypsy Boy" is little more than a clumsy piece of WUMing. Shouldn't have said it, but not a hanging offence either.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm with ncurd, people who talk the "sticks and stones" line are invariable those who haven't been on the receiving end of long, persistant verbal abuse. That poem may be true for one offs but it isn't true for any long term cases. Mental abuse drives people to suicide, is behind a large chunk of marriage breakups, is a huge contributor to depression, is a large chunk of workplace dissatisfaction and many other things. Words can destroy someones sense of self-worth and that is incredibly damaging. Cuts and bruises can be easily healed but mental damage is a very different kettle of fish and severe mental damage done early in a childs life will tend to stay with them forever.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm with ncurd, people who talk the "sticks and stones" line are invariable those who haven't been on the receiving end of long, persistant verbal abuse. That poem may be true for one offs but it isn't true for any long term cases. Mental abuse drives people to suicide, is behind a large chunk of marriage breakups, is a huge contributor to depression, is a large chunk of workplace dissatisfaction and many other things. Words can destroy someones sense of self-worth and that is incredibly damaging. Cuts and bruises can be easily healed but mental damage is a very different kettle of fish and severe mental damage done early in a childs life will tend to stay with them forever.

Obviously every case is different and every person is different, but I tend to take the stick and stones line on the whole for myself, and I had a big bullying problem when I was young. Although I guess it might of affected me in some ways CBA going into them.

It's a very complex thing I guess.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Some very good posts here on the wider mental bullying aspects. But when the incident is considered by the authorities I don't think they can be relevant unless perhaps it was publicly known that Lee had been bullied. That might put a different light on it.

Did Marler literally just call Lee "Gypsy Boy"? That's pushing his luck in the current climate, but to my mind very different to saying something like "shouldn't you be [insert derogatory stereotype here] like the all other gypsy boys". If he'd have done that then I think we'd all be as one in happily seeing him hung out to dry.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Did Marler literally just call Lee "Gypsy Boy"?

https://youtu.be/NAojERfJUOc

 

[ncurd]

I would of probably said the same thing a few years back, I mean I didn't deal well with it at the time at all. How it effects me now or since I've only really dealt with it in recent years.




Anyway going back on topic this is why Marler has to face some kind of punishment and why EJ had to remind him of his responsibilities, even if it was relatively mild. Marler is a role model for kids and they need to know this kind of thing is unacceteptable.

Personally I'd like to see a crack down on any language trying to wind the opposition up and provoke a reaction. However that'll never work so we can only work on the really unacceptable stuff.

 

[Willodell100]

It seems a lot has been covered here but how good was our set piece?

A lot of credit to the players but also Borthwick as our lineout was 100% again & we stole 2 Welsh darts as well.

 

[ncurd]

Some very good posts here on the wider mental bullying aspects. But when the incident is considered by the authorities I don't think they can be relevant unless perhaps it was publicly known that Lee had been bullied. That might put a different light on it.

I'm not particularly worried about Sampson Lee I don't think Marler did any irreparable damage and I strongly suspect he's heard far worse on a rugby pitch when a microphone didn't pick it up. Although I wouldn't be surprised to hear he took abuse for it as a child.

As noted above it's role model position Marler takes in a wider context which is why I think it's important not the context of Marler to Sampson Lee. That's not saying Sampson Lee deserves to be abused (or deliberately wound up due to his ethnic origin) on the pitch just it's such a mild piece of language used wider context is way more important than the narrow one.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would of probably said the same thing a few years back, I mean I didn't deal well with it at the time at all. How it effects me now or since I've only really dealt with it in recent years.




Anyway going back on topic this is why Marler has to face some kind of punishment and why EJ had to remind him of his responsibilities, even if it was relatively mild. Marler is a role model for kids and they need to know this kind of thing is unacceteptable.

Personally I'd like to see a crack down on any language trying to wind the opposition up and provoke a reaction. However that'll never work so we can only work on the really unacceptable stuff.

It's a pretty big problem in the GAA over here, cases like (http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/ot...-to-cancer-was-taunted-about-that-678139.html) this aren't uncommon and because the GAA is a reasonably small community it can get very personal. I've heard an example of a player getting taunted because his wife had allegedly cheated on him, abuse for being depressed and even the suicide of a former teammate, it's incredibly disgusting.

The GAA are trying to crack down on it, it's now a black card offence (Player gets sent off and may face further sanction but is allowed to be replaced by a sub) but obviously it's extremely hard to officiate without micing players up and having thirty lads listening to each one individually which isn't feasible at any level of the sport!

 

[Which Tyler]

Is using Pom, Paddy, Sweatie, Saes any different to this when being used with malice?

As far as I can tell - only in as much as Gypsys are a protected minority; and therefore any provocation that references their ethnicity becomes racism.
It's a racist slur, and one which many people wouldn't even have realised was such (including me - I didn't know Lee was of Gypsy stock, and also didn't instinctively know they were protected, but it rang a bell when I stopped and thought about it); but that doesn't make it any the less troublesome. It does also raise some interesting questions about a popular nick-name for Gareth Jenkins, or a certain quote from Hot Fuzz.

I can easily believe that Marler was ignorant - but that's mitigation, not excuse, and he was still bang-to-rights. Should get a low-end ban, and probably banged for longer for the elbow. Further, the incident should be used to educate those who didn't know that sort of language is unacceptable. Of course, it may be a case of the law being an ass (I make no comment on this, as I'd be unable to see through my privilege on this) - but the law is what it is.

As far as I understand it, yellow card still stands as the infringement was still made. Yeah the penalty was (rightly) reversed but that doesn't wipe away the string of previous infringements that led to the yellow.

Agreed - to my understanding Cole's yellow would only have been overturned if his offence wouldn't have happened had play been stopped at Francis' offence.

I would of probably said the same thing a few years back, I mean I didn't deal well with it at the time at all. How it effects me now or since I've only really dealt with it in recent years.

As a fellow victim of childhood bullying, who managed to (mostly) put it behind me during a depressive episode (ok, outright breakdown) in my early-mid 20s - I've always favoured the poem "Sticks and stones may break my bones; but words can scar for ever".
I've revisited and dealt with my issues as an adult; but there's still the odd phrase/memory that can trigger me to feelings of utter inadequacy and self-loathing.

 

[profitius]

What do you mean by that?

This is a massively complex subject area (possibly needs to be seperate thread) and I know my own case is as well. Does it matter what my paents did? The reality is the kids carry on once they have a target and telling kids to 'man up' from constant abuse doesn't work. I think my Mum told me the poem when I was very young (and the problem was relentless back that) but it doesn't work and all saying stuff like that does is make the kids pick on you even further.


I know this incredibly different thing but do you blame a rape victim for being raped? We live in a culture where when it comes to abuse some people have tedency to blame the victim rather the abuser.

My school had a 'no blame' policy? What 'no blame' on people who persitantly tried to make feel as mall as they humanly could? Yeah what a load of horse****.

It's not that complex. It's the weak preying on the weak.

What do bullies want? A reaction. They want to see someone get upset, for their own personal reasons.


Do how do you deal with it? Shrug your shoulders and and have a 'whatever' type mindset.


You can see yourself as a victim or a strong person. Everyone has that choice. The problem these days is that victimhood is everywhere and well promoted.


Rape is physical so a different thing.

 

[ncurd]

It's not that complex. It's the weak preying on the weak.

What do bullies want? A reaction. They want to see someone get upset, for their own personal reasons.


Do how do you deal with it? Shrug your shoulders and and have a 'whatever' type mindset.


You can see yourself as a victim or a strong person. Everyone has that choice. The problem these days is that victimhood is everywhere and well promoted.


Rape is physical so a different thing.

Tell that to a child, we're not talking about fully functional rational adults here who understand that argument, children do not react that way just because you tell them to.

I think your being pretty ignorant here.

 

[Peat]

Genuine question then, and not just aimed at you at all The5th...

Is using Pom, Paddy, Sweatie, Saes any different to this when being used with malice?

I don't think so - although they come with less history and society generally reacts in a more constrained manner at racism aimed at the majority.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Maybe someone with more skill can make this better?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's not that complex. It's the weak preying on the weak.

What do bullies want? A reaction. They want to see someone get upset, for their own personal reasons.


Do how do you deal with it? Shrug your shoulders and and have a 'whatever' type mindset.


You can see yourself as a victim or a strong person. Everyone has that choice. The problem these days is that victimhood is everywhere and well promoted.
.

That tended to be my theory when I was younger, and I followed it helped I was fairly built so knew if anything became physical I could handle myself with ease, but I can see where others can be more affected by it, everyone is different everyone buttons can be pushed differently.

I wouldn't say all bullies were after reactions I have seen a fair amount of bullies go after someone for what I saw as no reason.

Being one of the younger members by the looks of it (in early 20's) with a younger brother I find cyber bullying a interesting viewpoint for me I would say why do you go on said page or why not just block the person but it is a different generation, and who am I to judge them for not being able to do it?

 

[Japhet]

The Francis incident was nothing.
It must be viewed in normal time and it was definitely a yellow card. Any swipe at a prone players face should be...
Nothing was near the eyes. He scraped the players nose.
Yellow card.
Trying to intimate that he was going for the eyes is a stretch way too far.
The angle he was approaching from meant that the eyes would never be a viable target. He was looking to cuff the bloke in the face, and he did, and he got pinged for it.
So he should.
Cheap shots are not welcome in the game.
However, trying to stretch that out to make a claim that he was gouging, or even trying to gouge the prone players eyes, thats a stretch way too far.
Looked nothing of the kind to me.

Don't know about you but my eyes are near my nose.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Genuine question then, and not just aimed at you at all The5th...

Is using Pom, Paddy, Sweatie, Saes any different to this when being used with malice?

Genuine question, of course Mumbles119. As I said, its not the words, its the way they are used. the context and the tone. Inclusing the words you list.

And offence is subjective. Giving everyone here credit for having intelligence, it is rediculous to suggest that Marler used the words "gypsy boy" with anything other than malice. Using the 'prove it' argument is ludicrous.

 

[ncurd]

That tended to be my theory when I was younger, and I followed it helped I was fairly built so knew if anything became physical I could handle myself with ease, but I can see where others can be more affected by it, everyone is different everyone buttons can be pushed differently.

I wouldn't say all bullies were after reactions I have seen a fair amount of bullies go after someone for what I saw as no reason.

Being one of the younger members by the looks of it (in early 20's) with a younger brother I find cyber bullying a interesting viewpoint for me I would say why do you go on said page or why not just block the person but it is a different generation, and who am I to judge them for not being able to do it?

I've created a separate thread on this as I feel we're diverging a fair bit.
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37387-Bullying?p=789333#post789333