[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[munstermuffin]

Ryan yes yes yes
I've been mad to see him for ages , he was showing such quality for a time.
Foley I haven't watched much.
Henderson if he applys himself could become one of the best 2nd rows going and with the strength and depth in the Irish back row. POM will have 6 for years and years. 7 will be Sean as long as he can survive then Jordi Murphy I reckon and 8 belongs to Heaslip for the foreseeable future

As for above. Leading the international turnovers for a no.6 , taking into account his tackle count and his usual yardage. Yeah. POM is up there.

Well get ready the monster is back VERY soon and he's like a POM clone now. ****** off at a lot.
Foley will be a serious player. Great aggression and learning from a lot of good mentors. Schmidt likes him too.
I don't disagree regards Henderson. My point is Ulster think his attributes are better suited to 6 and well he is a very destructive powerful guy. You won't see it as much at 2nd row.

 

[goodNumber10]

Have collection of them on IRFU database and IRB databases yes and I asked what is world class as in what do you have to do? Can I ask what 6's you think are world class and why exactly they are?

do you have a link you can share with us? Comparative stats?

I've listed above 3 i think are better players than POM, better ball carries and defenders, players who excel outside of their teams systems.

POM fits a system, but pull him out of that system, put him into Wales, or France or England or Scotland and what impact do you think he'd have?

 

[munstermuffin]

do you have a link you can share with us? Comparative stats?

I've listed above 3 i think are better players than POM, better ball carries and defenders excel outside of their teams systems.

POM fits a system, but pull him out of that system, put him into Wales, or France or England or Scotland and what impact do you think he'd have?

Not that I can share but I'm sure if you look it up it's easy to do.
Well Munster and Ireland are 2 different systems. He excels greatly in both.

 

[goodNumber10]

6/7 turnovers a game, yet he's got one turnover in this entire 6 nations...last year he got 3 the whole tournament, 2 againt Italy 1 against Scotland (I think).

What's skewing those stats?

 

[lucky number 7]

Michael Lawes
Tuilagi
and Brown are all world class

Brown was pretty much best 15 in the world for the last 18 months, though he's had a loss of form in the last 6. Lawes is phenomenal, and the most complete lock in the NH as an all round player.

Parling & Corbisiero literally turned an entire test series for the Lions..... i'm sorry but we've got more than people make out.

Lawes is a great player. He's not a world class second row though.
Brown was the best attacking fullback for a year. Halfpenny allround is far superior and has been for years.
Tuilagi is potentially world class but hasn't got hands to wipe his ass and hasn't played consistently in a long long time. As said before with a really good backline around him he could become best 13 in the world though.


Lauchbury is world Class.
Ford will be if given time.
May could be on a longshot.

 

[munstermuffin]

6/7 turnovers a game, yet he's got one turnover in this entire 6 nations...

Did I say 6/7 turnovers a game???

And well I looking up your 3 guys now on international games now just to see.

Just out of curiosity for Leguizimon over past 18 months what would you say he'd be much better than POM at? Giggidy

 

[lucky number 7]

Well get ready the monster is back VERY soon  and he's like a POM clone now. ****** off at a lot.
Foley will be a serious player. Great aggression and learning from a lot of good mentors. Schmidt likes him too.
I don't disagree regards Henderson. My point is Ulster think his attributes are better suited to 6 and well he is a very destructive powerful guy. You won't see it as much at 2nd row.

This is all exceptionally good news.
Hows Copeland ? He's got a disgusting amount of potential and is very hungry.

 

[goodNumber10]

Did I say 6/7 turnovers a game???

Ah, fair enough mate, i thought this (below) was per game, not for the last 18 months, so he's had 6/7 turnovers since 2013?

@GN10 POM has been statistically the best flanker in World Rugby since September 2013 at turning ball over at international rugby by something like 6/7 turnovers.

And well I looking up your 3 guys now on international games now just to see.

cool, do you mind sharing?

Just out of curiosity for Leguizimon over past 18 months what would you say he'd be much better than POM at? Giggidy

purely observational Mate, based on impact i felt he has on his teams preformance, not backed with stats (this is where you tell me he's sh*tehouse right )

 

[munstermuffin]

Ah, fair enough mate, i thought this (below) was per game, not for the last 18 months, so he's had 6/7 turnovers since 2013?





cool, do you mind sharing?

Well I doing this manually and I'll be honest I going to have fun with Leguizamons last few games mostly at 8 vs POMs. (Both last 6 games) I will exclude Italian game and kept it vs higher opposition if you like

 

[yaboyjj]

Lawes is a great player. He's not a world class second row though.
Brown was the best attacking fullback for a year. Halfpenny allround is far superior and has been for years.
Tuilagi is potentially world class but hasn't got hands to wipe his ass and hasn't played consistently in a long long time. As said before with a really good backline around him he could become best 13 in the world though.


Lauchbury is world Class.
Ford will be if given time.
May could be on a longshot.

I disagree about Halfpenney being far superior- (goalkicking should not factor), both are very good positionally and in defence, but Brown is a better counter attacker. Also Tuilagi actually has great hands for the offload, it's just that he doesn't pass enough (incentive?), I'd question his ball-hogging attitude and decision making rather than his skill-set per se.
Cole, Corbs, Launch, Morgan and Brown (on form) are all world class.
Ford, Joseph, Lawes, Vunipola, Tuilagi have potential to be.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well I doing this manually and I'll be honest I going to have fun with Leguizamons last few games mostly at 8 vs POMs. (Both last 6 games) I will exclude Italian game and kept it vs higher opposition if you like

what you using to crunch the stats? website wise?

and no, crunch them, like i said purely observational... not backed with stats.

 

[profitius]

do you have a link you can share with us? Comparative stats?

I've listed above 3 i think are better players than POM, better ball carries and defenders, players who excel outside of their teams systems.

POM fits a system, but pull him out of that system, put him into Wales, or France or England or Scotland and what impact do you think he'd have?

You're not making any sense. I listed his attributes which have nothing to do with systems.

 

[goodNumber10]

You're not making any sense. I listed his attributes which have nothing to do with systems.

how does it not make sense?

You realise that it wasn't a reply to you it was a reply to Munster Muffins post, you just asked me who I thought'd been better and i answered with three players. The comments in that quote have nothing to do with your question.

 

[profitius]

how does it not make sense?

You realise that it wasn't a reply to you it was a reply to Munster Muffins post, you just asked me who I thought'd been better and i answered with three players. The comments in that quote have nothing to do with your question.

Maybe mike Brown only looks good in the England system. Maybe Richie McCaw only looks good in the NZ system. That doesn't sound logical to me.

 

[goodNumber10]

Maybe mike Brown only looks good in the England system. Maybe Richie McCaw only looks good in the NZ system. That doesn't sound logical to me.

Unlikely, 15 is quite a lonely position it's easier to quantify what they do and don't do and the impact they have ont he game outside of the the oevr arcing systems utilised, that's a lot harder to do for a backrow forward as they will be reliant on more peopel around them.

As for McCaw, perhaps but over a decades worth of results and the fact he's still played well when his teams dropped off would point otherwise.

Christ, all this because I said POM wasn't world class yet, such a silly argument.

 

[munstermuffin]

how does it not make sense?

You realise that it wasn't a reply to you it was a reply to Munster Muffins post, you just asked me who I thought'd been better and i answered with three players. The comments in that quote have nothing to do with your question.

Ok you said based on carries defensive duties and all that and using IRFU opta stats package (which they opta stats do for all games).
Last 4 internationals each. (Excluding Italy for POM)
Leguizamons 4 are (@8 vs SA x2, 7 vs NZ and 6 vs Aus)
POM all at 6 ( SA, Eng, Aus, France)

Leguizamon

Carries/Metres
47/57 - 1.21m average

Tackles made/missed
29/4- success rate - 87.88%

Pens Conceded
6

Turnovers
5

Lineouts won/lost
3/1 - 75%

POM
Carries/Metres
25/37 - 1.48m average

Tackles made/missed
41/2 - success rate - 95.34

Pens Conceded
4

Turnovers
5

Lineouts won/lost
8/1 - 88.88%

The floor is yours my friend.

So what basis again do you base a good back row guy on

 

[munstermuffin]

Unlikely, 15 is quite a lonely position it's easier to quantify what they do and don't do and the impact they have ont he game outside of the the oevr arcing systems utilised, that's a lot harder to do for a backrow forward as they will be reliant on more peopel around them.

As for McCaw, perhaps but over a decades worth of results and the fact he's still played well when his teams dropped off would point otherwise.

Christ, all this because I said POM wasn't world class yet, such a silly argument.

I think it's more you said he's not and then got challenged and dug hole of saying it's not because of this that and other but they're all proven to not be case and for what it worth I'd ask when has McCaw lately been playing in a poor team?
As for Brown I'd say he's world class 15 (even saying pre game I'd have him over Kearney) but doesn't mean Kearney isn't worldclass.

 

[goodNumber10]

Ok you said based on carries defensive duties and all that and using IRFU opta stats package (which they opta stats do for all games).
Last 4 internationals each. (Excluding Italy for POM)
Leguizamons 4 are (@8 vs SA x2, 7 vs NZ and 6 vs Aus)
POM all at 6 ( SA, Eng, Aus, France)

Leguizamon

Carries/Metres
47/57 - 1.21m average

Tackles made/missed
29/4- success rate - 87.88%

Pens Conceded
6

Turnovers
5

Lineouts won/lost
3/1 - 75%

POM
Carries/Metres
25/37 - 1.48m average

Tackles made/missed
41/2 - success rate - 95.34

Pens Conceded
4

Turnovers
5

Lineouts won/lost
8/1 - 88.88%

The floor is yours my friend.

So what basis again do you base a good back row guy on

That's not as bad as i thought it would be I thought there would be a bigger swing when you got all excited, but i stand corrected (on the stats at least)

Though to be fair i did say it was only observational, and to be fair they are playing in very different teams and to be fair against different opponents.

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I think it's more you said he's not and then got challenged and dug hole of saying it's not because of this that and other but they're all proven to not be case

Not really.

I said he's not world class, you then showed the stats for one of the guys i mentioned in the last 4 games against different opposition playing in very different teams and doing different jobs within those teams - i said all along my 3 choices were observational and based on the impact i felt they had within their teams. You can quote stats till the cows come home but if they aren't in the correct context they mean absolutely jack.

I'd ask when has McCaw lately been playing in a poor team?

Have you watched the 'saders the last couple of season?

 

[munstermuffin]

That's not as bad as i thought it would be I thought there would be a bigger swing when you got all excited, but i stand corrected (on the stats at least)

Though to be fair i did say it was only observational, and to be fair they are playing in very different teams and to be fair against different opponents.

Well you clearly stated he's better defensively, carrying and well attacking and set piece. And both had Aus and SA and England and France in 6 Nations are as Tough as NZ games. So again your wrong not too different. And well different teams different structure doesn't matter. So again I'd ask what exactly does a guy do in your eyes rate world class or how'd you rate Leguizamon world class and POM not for example.

 

[munstermuffin]

That's not as bad as i thought it would be I thought there would be a bigger swing when you got all excited, but i stand corrected (on the stats at least)

Though to be fair i did say it was only observational, and to be fair they are playing in very different teams and to be fair against different opponents.

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Not really.

I said he's not world class, you then showed the stats for one of the guys i mentioned in the last 4 games against different opposition playing in very different teams and doing different jobs within those teams - i said all along my 3 choices were observational and based on the impact i felt they had within their teams. You can quote stats till the cows come home but if they aren't in the correct context they mean absolutely jack.



Have you watched the 'saders the last couple of season?

Yeah I've watched them vaguely and McCaw hasn't been stand out impressive.

And I've watched Argentina too in their games and well I don't see impact. And stats are what a flankers job does. In your view so Madigan is a world class 10 and some one like an O'Gara or Stephen Jones isn't. Because on impact Madigan is superb. Others weren't but did bread and butter stuff to perfection at their peak.