[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Robshaw does make a fare few turnovers, he also disrupts oppositions rucks, he also plays a good link man role.

Is he now a world class open side? Maybe not world class because of his lack of pace.

Other than that is consider him a true open side now. People have a misconception about robshaw playing differently to how he does.

 

[goodNumber10]

Robshaw does make a fare few turnovers, he also disrupts oppositions rucks, he also plays a good link man role.

Is he now a world class open side? Maybe not world class because of his lack of pace.

Other than that is consider him a true open side now. People have a misconception about robshaw playing differently to how he does.

he does, but apparently we're only using stats to quantify if someone is world class or not, or effective or not so..... he clearly is.

 

[nickdnz]

I think I'll always disagree with people on Robshaw being a 7. For me he's just another Lewis Moody. Which isn't a bad player at all. It's just he doesn't have the sort of skills you want your 7 to have, to the level you'd want them to have it. I feel England have always felt with going with a team with a back-row all pretty good at doing stuff reasonably well. It just gives England little point of difference. However I will say the reason England were beaten at the breakdown had little to do with Robshaw not being a great fetcher. It was simply Ireland's entire forward pack were better drilled and had a greater intensity.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The points of difference is the one often used to express whether a player is world class, and in Robshaws case thats maybe where he doesn't get the recognition he deserves. He embodies the fact that work-rate technique, positioning and reading of the game can make you world class. If people are looking to see world class points of difference traits such as jackling, carrying etc... you're not going to find them.

 

[nickdnz]

The points of difference is the one often used to express whether a player is world class, and in Robshaws case thats maybe where he doesn't get the recognition he deserves. He embodies the fact that work-rate technique, positioning and reading of the game can make you world class. If people are looking to see world class points of difference traits such as jackling, carrying etc... you're not going to find them.

From anyone? Or anyone in England? (not meant to be snarky!)

I'm not sure I'd say Robshaw is exceptional at reading the game, if he was he would be at breakdowns earlier. He has a very good work rate and tackle count, sure. So does Haskell generally. And Wood. Chucking two of them to do the same role simply makes a less dynamic backrow, and means the eighth man has do do everything that the others are average at: namely ball carrying, fetching, running support.

I feel like there is a lot of English people who just seem to deny that open-side is a specialist role, despite the trend of basically every other successful nation having them. Victor Vito and Liam Messam are good players, but there's a reason why they're not looked as long term replacements of McCaw, they don't have the skill-set.

 

[goodNumber10]

From anyone? Or anyone in England? (not meant to be snarky!)

I'm not sure I'd say Robshaw is exceptional at reading the game, if he was he would be at breakdowns earlier. He has a very good work rate and tackle count, sure. So does Haskell generally. And Wood. Chucking two of them to do the same role simply makes a less dynamic backrow, and means the eighth man has do do everything that the others are average at: namely ball carrying, fetching, running support.

I feel like there is a lot of English people who just seem to deny that open-side is a specialist role, despite the trend of basically every other successful nation having them. Victor Vito and Liam Messam are good players, but there's a reason why they're not looked as long term replacements of McCaw, they don't have the skill-set.

I juts think physically England favour the big left and right ball carrying options over the out and out fetcher - i think we're closest to SA in that regards, though France are similar.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

From anyone? Or anyone in England? (not meant to be snarky!)

I'm not sure I'd say Robshaw is exceptional at reading the game, if he was he would be at breakdowns earlier. He has a very good work rate and tackle count, sure. So does Haskell generally. And Wood. Chucking two of them to do the same role simply makes a less dynamic backrow, and means the eighth man has do do everything that the others are average at: namely ball carrying, fetching, running support.

I feel like there is a lot of English people who just seem to deny that open-side is a specialist role, despite the trend of basically every other successful nation having them. Victor Vito and Liam Messam are good players, but there's a reason why they're not looked as long term replacements of McCaw, they don't have the skill-set.

I'm talking solely about Robshaw there.

We don't deny the existence of the specialist openside role, we just say that if you don't have a player with that skill-set, don't try and take a player whose strengths lie elsewhere and try and turn them into that player. The sides without a 'Pocock-esque' 7 have by and large found a very suitable alternative. With Armitage overseas, and Kvesic not quite there, England don't have the player to be that 7 just yet - Olyy would say Dave Seymour - and so we make do.
Its also more about the overall balance of your pack I would argue.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm talking solely about Robshaw there.

We don't deny the existence of the specialist openside role, we just say that if you don't have a player with that skill-set, don't try and take a player whose strengths lie elsewhere and try and turn them into that player. The sides without a 'Pocock-esque' 7 have by and large found a very suitable alternative. With Armitage overseas, and Kvesic not quite there, England don't have the player to be that 7 just yet - Olyy would say Dave Seymour - and so we make do.
Its also more about the overall balance of your pack I would argue.

It's absolutely about balance of the pack.

If the front 5 get done like Englands did on Sunday the backrow becomes more inefficient and struggles to have an impact.

Plus it's tactics, ireland didn't play wide, they stayed close to their pack to limit England turnover and allow them to flood the breakdown on their own ball - leading me back to my whole point about systems and how people fit into them and look good doing so.

 

[profitius]

very doubtful, he doesn't fit their playing style at all - he does for Ireland what their locks do for the AB's.


Yes, a reasoned debate and offering counter points is being stubborn.

Here is a question for you and MM then, is Chris Robshaw a world class open side?

By your reasoning his accumulative stats would suggest he is.

POM would be perfect fit for their style because you mightn't have noticed that his footballing skills are top notch which is something they like. They like to put fowards on the wing which is something he can do easily. Being good at the breakdown and lineout, having a big engine and intelligence are also important to them. He ticks all the boxes.


Chris Robshaw isn't an all round talent so I wouldn't describe him as world class. He is just lacking a string or two to his bow. He is very good at what he does though and there wouldn't be too many teams turn him away. His leadership is important for England so he is worth his place.

 

[munstermuffin]

Which is why POC and AWJ won IRB Player of the Year in their primes...

I wouldn't put either of them in the All Blacks now truth be told, I'd much rather have Retallick and Whitelock..

Retallick is 23 years old by the way, bit laughable calling it his peak..

Well my point is I'm not saying 1 is better just they're all in same class. Retallick won his award in a poorer era and that doesn't lessen it but rugby at international level has declined over the past 3/4 years easily. And your opinion is you'd keep to current guys and many may agree but others wouldn't. There's no right or wrong

 

[Jbobo]

Why are we extrapolating this to 'All Black players?'. The point I disagree with is that those players were better than Retallick in their primes and are now only slightly worse. I just think its rubbish. In their primes they are possibly on par, but Retallick was one of two players pretty unanimously agreed for being the best performing players in the world this year along with Vermeulen. I can safely say I have never considered either of POC or AWJ as ones of the two best players in the world in a given year, despite being very good locks. It was just a bizarre statement to declare those two better (or at least retrospectively better) than the current IRB Player of the Year...who is still only 23 but somehow in his prime. Unfortunately no one outside of Wales seemed to have thought AWJ was nearly the best player in the world last year...

Easy now...It wasn't even my comment you were originally replying to, don't put words into my mouth. I think the point you're missing is that although Retallick won the IRB player of the year last year for one year it does not automatically make him a class above everyone else which is exactly what you implied. Also, we're not talking about last year (at least i'm not). At the moment, AWJ for some (maybe just me, but what do i care?) is playing at a standard which would match Retallick on most given days. I sincerely believe that. From the last few months of last year to now, I would nominate AWJ for the player of the year award. Unsung hero if i ever saw one and probably Wales' best and most consistent players for a few years, along maybe with 1/2p.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

POM would be perfect fit for their style because you mightn't have noticed that his footballing skills are top notch which is something they like. They like to put fowards on the wing which is something he can do easily. Being good at the breakdown and lineout, having a big engine and intelligence are also important to them. He ticks all the boxes.


Chris Robshaw isn't an all round talent so I wouldn't describe him as world class. He is just lacking a string or two to his bow. He is very good at what he does though and there wouldn't be too many teams turn him away. His leadership is important for England so he is worth his place.

Going into the game, I was classing Haskell and O'Mahony as similarly good players based on current form. Haskell has been immense this season, and I think that when both play well they are similarly good.
Difference is, O'Mahony stood up to be counted whereas Haskell didn't and that tells you a lot about players.

It's absolutely about balance of the pack.

If the front 5 get done like Englands did on Sunday the backrow becomes more inefficient and struggles to have an impact.

Plus it's tactics, ireland didn't play wide, they stayed close to their pack to limit England turnover and allow them to flood the breakdown on their own ball - leading me back to my whole point about systems and how people fit into them and look good doing so.

I'm starting to come round to what Peat was saying about Hartley, for example. At the highest levels, you can't afford to have shirt fillers. This is a complete change of tack from my argument that set-piece is all that matters. But I now think you need more.
I'm still not entirely sure why our front 5 was so poor. Attwood was a big part of that, he simply wasn't there at all. On top of that, is our front row perhaps a bit too neat and trim? I think there's a Webber-shaped hole where Hartley currently plays...
I think Michael Lawes might have made a good difference to our front 5 effort.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well that's just simply not true, it's fine saying the stats are this, and i've said that yeah your stats indicate POM is better than Leguz, but you have to look in context of how those stats are accumulated...the impact they have on the game/move.

You say they are backrows so wont' be out wide, yet Hooper, Reid, Kaino and a bunch of other guys spend a lot of time out there in attack, and it's not unusual to see forwards defending out in the midfield in this day and age, especially over multiple phases.

All stats are open to interpretation it's how we interpret them that matters.




That's grossly unfair mate, of course it's hypothetical. Unless you're willing to give me access to the same data you have it's not much more than two blokes waving their hands in each others face, without going back and coding the games myself it has to be observational comments. (I believe the opta stats aren't public and only professionals have access)

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anyway, on an unrelated note:

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-maul-1968803-Mar2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

So your saying POM has no impact on games? Do you watch Ireland much? Schmidt praised him last year as massive at breakdown almost every game. Again your trying to say something to suit you but then when I use that to disclaim it clearly you just continue to move the goal posts. So what your saying is "if a guy looks good and seems to be making impact but statistically shows poor errors that's better than being statically good and probably being less impact from observation".
Yes that's what your saying.
Your saying it's ok to consistently miss tackles if your on some areas of field, if your not making metres in areas (even though for an 8 even Jordi Murphy has made more metres) and why don't you do your own stats so and look yourself?

Regards guys outside yes Hooper and them do but are we talking about 6s or backrows. I'm discussing a world class 6.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry but Tuilagi was crucial to our 2012 victory against NZ, if there is one player that is effective against big teams it is Tuilagi.

I never said he never was just at times he went missing as has many guys. I asked does he fit England's gameplan. And regards New Zealand game you mention it's hard to gauge as All Blacks were cleaned with virus.

 

[munstermuffin]

Why are we extrapolating this to 'All Black players?'. The point I disagree with is that those players were better than Retallick in their primes and are now only slightly worse. I just think its rubbish. In their primes they are possibly on par, but Retallick was one of two players pretty unanimously agreed for being the best performing players in the world this year along with Vermeulen. I can safely say I have never considered either of POC or AWJ as ones of the two best players in the world in a given year, despite being very good locks. It was just a bizarre statement to declare those two better (or at least retrospectively better) than the current IRB Player of the Year...who is still only 23 but somehow in his prime. Unfortunately no one outside of Wales seemed to have thought AWJ was nearly the best player in the world last year..



Yep. Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw and Kieran Read dodged a bullet there.

Many even now don't consider Retallick best in world. How many times did McCaw get it when it was clear it wasn't deserved. And it's not a case of room only for 1 World Class. Would you say Sexton is only World Class 10 in world now as he's probably the best. No didn't think so

 

[munstermuffin]

he does, but apparently we're only using stats to quantify if someone is world class or not, or effective or not so..... he clearly is.

What stats would show Robshaw to be world class so I can test theory?

Edit
Excluding Italy game.
Robshaw over past year hasn't made massive metres per carry. Actually very small distance.
Tackled like a demon but has missed a few a good few and conceded a few pens. And little turnovers in fact (excluding Italy game and Samoa) this season he's made 3 turnovers in a full year. GoodNumber I think your proven wrong

 

[ncurd]

What stats would show Robshaw to be world class so I can test theory?

I'd say the from appearance Robshaw excels at are tackles made, tackles missed and making meters every carry as he always seams to go over the gainline. That's purely observational though I'm happy to be proved wrong. I think his turnovers will be pretty good as well.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd say the from appearance Robshaw excels at are tackles made, tackles missed and making meters every carry as he always seams to go over the gainline. That's purely observational though I'm happy to be proved wrong. I think his turnovers will be pretty good as well.

Tackles missed there but he makes good bit. Metres and turnovers are poor.

 

[goodNumber10]

So your saying POM has no impact on games? Do you watch Ireland much? Schmidt praised him last year as massive at breakdown almost every game. Again your trying to say something to suit you but then when I use that to disclaim it clearly you just continue to move the goal posts.

So what your saying is "if a guy looks good and seems to be making impact but statistically shows poor errors that's better than being statically good and probably being less impact from observation".

Yes that's what your saying.

No, that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that unless you know how to interpret the data the stats return then you're just whistling in the wind, and waving a tackle count as some proof of someone being world class, is meaningless unless you understand how to interpret that.

Your saying it's ok to consistently miss tackles if your on some areas of field

No, i'm saying it's OK to miss a tackle if the outcome of that is a positive one for the team - most teams mark on positive/negative otucome and not "how many did he make".

The system Les Kiss uses allows for missed tackles in this way it is the same scoring system as the England one if the tackel is missed but it results in a mistake, or driving the ball carrier into a worse area of the field then it is marked as positive.

if your not making metres in areas (even though for an 8 even Jordi Murphy has made more metres)

again, depends on how and why and what your role within the team is.

and why don't you do your own stats so and look yourself?

because i don't need to. just PM me your opta password and we can use the same Data source to draw our conclusion?

Regards guys outside yes Hooper and them do but are we talking about 6s or backrows. I'm discussing a world class 6.

You're the one who said he's a back row he doesn't go wide... you're the one who made that comparison, not me.

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What stats would show Robshaw to be world class so I can test theory?

Edit
Excluding Italy game.
Robshaw over past year hasn't made massive metres per carry. Actually very small distance.
Tackled like a demon but has missed a few a good few and conceded a few pens. And little turnovers in fact (excluding Italy game and Samoa) this season he's made 3 turnovers in a full year. GoodNumber I think your proven wrong

I've not been proven wrong in the slightest, you've just waved some stats around, share your data or quantify it against public resources so we can all interpret it or else the statistical side of the discussion is pointless.

 

[ncurd]

I've not been proven wrong in the slightest, you've just waved some stats around, share your data or quantify it against public resources so we can all interpret it or else the statistical side of the discussion is pointless.

Agreed

I didn't say meters per carry, I want to know how often Robshaw breaks the gain line compared to other players. He never seams to have any epic breaks but he has the perception that he rarely is sent backwards. Meters/carry doesn't prove anything on that front.