[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[goodNumber10]

Well you clearly stated he's better defensively,

and i clarified that it was observational...because i do not have access to those stats.

carrying and well attacking and set piece. And both had Aus and SA and England and France in 6 Nations are as Tough as NZ games. So again your wrong not too different. And well different teams different structure doesn't matter. So again I'd ask what exactly does a guy do in your eyes rate world class or how'd you rate Leguizamon world class and POM not for example.

I've just told you, the impact i felt he had on the team.

As i said you've got the stats, and it's hard to argue that, but there always has to be a context on those stats - just pointing out how many metres he ran etc... doesn't tell us much about where he ran them from. Winning line outs doesn't mean much if they don't' compete and so on....what defensive system is being run? positive or negative impact or just completion (or both) tackles and so on...

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And I've watched Argentina too in their games and well I don't see impact. And stats are what a flankers job does. In your view so Madigan is a world class 10 and some one like an O'Gara or Stephen Jones isn't. Because on impact Madigan is superb. Others weren't but did bread and butter stuff to perfection at their peak.

No, you're putting words in where there weren't any - the impact ROG had on the team was very different to Madigans harum scarum play.... you're comparing impact player to impact of a player, it's a silly comparison.

How many world 15's do you think POM would get into outside of Ireland?

 

[munstermuffin]

and i clarified that it was observational...



I've just told you, the impact i felt he had on the team.

As i said you've got the stats, and it's hard to argue that, but there always ahs to be a context on those stats - just pointing out how many metres he ran etc... doesn't tell us much about where he ran them from. Winning lineouts doesn't mean much if they dont' compete and so on....

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No, you're putting words in where there weren't any - the impact ROG had ont he team was very different to Madigans harum scarum play.. it's silly comparison.

How many world 15's do you think POM would get into outside of Ireland?

Well I think he'd make any 6 nations team at 6 except French maybe. Although some would say it's tight with him and Lydiate.
He'd make Aus team and Argentina. Not All Blacks or Saffas.

Regards Leguizamon having looked very briefly over his last 3 years and Argentina games I'd say few pointers.
He's rarely played at 6.
His defence seems **** poor as does his discipline. He misses a lot of tackles and concededa few pens.
Regards metres run he done a lot from 8. You look at a Heaslip, Parisse, Vunipola these guys may 60+ a game usually. He couldn't do that in 4 games. POM beat his average playing all at 6. That's harder to do than at 8. Pom very rarely gets uncontested lineouts if ever. So I'd certainly say you probably don't see much of him for Munster or Ireland. And 1 of higest compliments was last year a certain Richard Hill said after he was injured that he's 1 of best modern 6s he's seen in past few years and is the character teams need.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well I think he'd make any 6 nations team at 6 except French maybe. Although some would say it's tight with him and Lydiate.
He'd make Aus team and Argentina. Not All Blacks or Saffas.

that wasn't the question.

Regards Leguizamon having looked very briefly over his last 3 years and Argentina games I'd say few pointers.
He's rarely played at 6.
His defence seems **** poor as does his discipline. He misses a lot of tackles and concededa few pens.

you need to quantify the context of those missed tackles penalties conceeded though before you can make either claim stick.

Regards metres run he done a lot from 8. You look at a Heaslip, Parisse, Vunipola these guys may 60+ a game usually. He couldn't do that in 4 games. POM beat his average playing all at 6. That's harder to do than at 8. Pom very rarely gets uncontested lineouts if ever. So I'd certainly say you probably don't see much of him for Munster or Ireland.

That wasn't the point and you know it, it was just pushing a context on the stat, not a claim that something was happening.

Regardless as i said stats are fine, especially when presented in isolation as they are here, but without comparing them against the systems used by teams they aren't much better than observational conclusions.

For example you say his defence is poorer? statistically wise perhaps, but how is he used by the team? Where does he make the bulk fo his tackles, in close or out wide, or chasing kicks and so on....

anyway.... we could go all night. I accept that on paper his stats are better.

have a good one mate, i need to sleep, pick up in the morning

 

[munstermuffin]

that wasn't the question.



you need to quantify the context of those missed tackles penalties conceeded though before you can make either claim stick.



That wasn't the point and you know it, it was just pushing a context on the stat, not a claim that something was happening.

Regardless as i said stats are fine, especially when presented in isolation as they are here, but without comparing them against the systems used by teams they aren't much better than observational conclusions.

For example you say his defence is poorer? statistically wise perhaps, but how is he used by the team? Where does he make the bulk fo his tackles, in close or out wide, or chasing kicks and so on....

anyway.... we could go all night. I accept that on paper his stats are better.

World 15s well that's basically asking do I think he's best 6 in world? No I don't. So it's simply who rates who as best in world. That's like saying so Brown isn't world class because Dagg and Smith are better.

Well in my eyes regards defence if your missing a lot of tackles yes your defence is worst. Ha man your digging yourself deep. Both are back row guys so won't be spending most of day out wide. And if you watched both guys you'd no kick chase isn't really factor either. Stats and basic defending knowledge show the obvious there.

So again you've yet to even put up a decent challenge and just resort to hypothetical stuff which may work over a game. But not 4 minimum and Leguizamon stats over longer period also back me up. So for a guy that carries well then he doesn't carry forward very effective and as you rate him highly defensively he does tend to miss a lot for world class player which shows even world class have faults. Yes POM does too and well that doesn't mean he's not world class.

 

[ENZED-88]

I'd strongly argue that the first line is wrong. POC is nearly 36. AWJ is probably near that and both are definitely up there and I'd say Rettalick at his peak isn't as good as what the 2 lads were at their peak. And even now maybe Retralick is slightly better but again it's marginal. They show every game that they are valuable and very effective.

Rettalick is a few years away from reaching his peak IMO.

 

[nickdnz]

I'd strongly argue that the first line is wrong. POC is nearly 36. AWJ is probably near that and both are definitely up there and I'd say Rettalick at his peak isn't as good as what the 2 lads were at their peak. And even now maybe Retralick is slightly better but again it's marginal. They show every game that they are valuable and very effective.

Which is why POC and AWJ won IRB Player of the Year in their primes...

I wouldn't put either of them in the All Blacks now truth be told, I'd much rather have Retallick and Whitelock..

Retallick is 23 years old by the way, bit laughable calling it his peak..

 

[goodNumber10]

Well in my eyes regards defence if your missing a lot of tackles yes your defence is worst. Ha man your digging yourself deep. Both are back row guys so won't be spending most of day out wide. And if you watched both guys you'd no kick chase isn't really factor either. Stats and basic defending knowledge show the obvious there.

Well that's just simply not true, it's fine saying the stats are this, and i've said that yeah your stats indicate POM is better than Leguz, but you have to look in context of how those stats are accumulated...the impact they have on the game/move.

You say they are backrows so wont' be out wide, yet Hooper, Reid, Kaino and a bunch of other guys spend a lot of time out there in attack, and it's not unusual to see forwards defending out in the midfield in this day and age, especially over multiple phases.

All stats are open to interpretation it's how we interpret them that matters.

So again you've yet to even put up a decent challenge and just resort to hypothetical stuff which may work over a game. But not 4 minimum and Leguizamon stats over longer period also back me up. So for a guy that carries well then he doesn't carry forward very effective and as you rate him highly defensively he does tend to miss a lot for world class player which shows even world class have faults. Yes POM does too and well that doesn't mean he's not world class.

That's grossly unfair mate, of course it's hypothetical. Unless you're willing to give me access to the same data you have it's not much more than two blokes waving their hands in each others face, without going back and coding the games myself it has to be observational comments. (I believe the opta stats aren't public and only professionals have access)

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anyway, on an unrelated note:

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-maul-1968803-Mar2015/?utm_source=twitter_self

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Coetzee, Kaino, Leguizamon.....

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what game has he not dominated the midfield in?

He has had the upper hand on every team (including Ireland) when he's played.

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come on mate don't undersell us, i'm the last person to be crowing A, B or C is this and that, but:

Michael Lawes
Tuilagi
and Brown are all world class

Brown was pretty much best 15 in the world for the last 18 months, though he's had a loss of form in the last 6. Lawes is phenomenal, and the most complete lock in the NH as an all round player.

Parling & Corbisiero literally turned an entire test series for the Lions..... i'm sorry but we've got more than people make out.

Actually yeah...I literally forgot some players last night..!
Morgan has that potential when he stays fit.
Corbisiero
Cole or Wilson
Not sure about Michael Lawes.

Haha if Mike Ross is world class, then so is every other player in the six nations.

 

[Mumbles119]

Too disheartened after the match to come and read or contribute. Got over it now.

I have come in here to find everything that could be said, has been said.

Simply put, Ireland were great. They beat England to the breakdown and dominated it too. The Ireland pack all put in a huge effort.

When POM first came on the scene, he was very easy to dislike, as he came across a bit thuggish on and off the ball. However, over the last year he has converted me fully. Certainly he was not the only guy making the effort, but the hard toughness he put in to that game was superb.

As @Jonesboy put it so well, the key issue for England was being beaten by speed at ruck time. There were other issues too, such as JJ having too little time on the ball or Youngs terrible passing, but these are in some ways a moot point. Losing the breakdown meant England were forced to concede in all other areas.

This is a must for England to change. The only way I see it changing is to rebalance the back row with less mass, more speed and impact.
As already said, the inclusion of Launchbury (when fit) and Ewers (if ever included in the EPS) would make a real difference. They both have the work rate and speed that makes a difference.

 

[Peat]

UR2012 - It's quite possibly you know a bunch of idiots then

Re England - I think the simplest way to quantify England is to go through and count all the difficult matches; NZ, SA, Aus, Ireland post-Kidney, I guess Wales (they come and go) and look at the win/loss ratio. It's pretty poor. It paints a simple and clear picture of an England side that ultimately is not really at rugby's top table. Good enough to make them work, but no more than that.

If you accept that picture - like I do - then there are no shortage of possible reasons it might be the case. We bicker about which ones are more important on this forum, but I think the reality is they're all important. And even if the weakness is a small, nearly insignificant thing compared to other issues, the fact is there's a huge number of these small things and if a team lags behind by 2-3% against their rivals, then cumulatively it is a huge margin. Dickering over which areas are the worst or maybe aren't areas at all is nothing more than pleasant diversion. The bald fact is we lag behind in too many areas and that we're not good enough nigh totally across the board.

There's plenty who don't agree with that picture to a large degree and, yes, I feel England are overrated by a significant amount of their fans, who cling to high points in form as a true barometer of ability, or believe slightly irrationally then a huge pool of players must logically mean more international standard players. I can't blame them, I've done it myself at times, we all do, but it's beginning to feel like willful denial of reality in some places (not aimed at anyone here).

Final point - Tuilagi - I dug out his stats vs 3N oppo on ESPN a while back and, yes, he's been pretty bloody effective at that level on a very consistent basis. If anything he's underrated by people who fixate on the weaknesses in his game ahead of his strengths. With good ball, he is simply unplayable.

Re Ireland

I'll take the open goal provided. Jared Payne is a cracking full-back but, by NH standards, he simply struggles to shine at domestic level as a centre, nevermind international. He is consistent and active - perfect for Schmidt's current plan - but offers not a thing for a great running game. Which starts with the forwards anyway; Ireland's forwards consist mainly of defence/set piece merchants with middling attacking ability and useful step ins who can master a role and exploit weakness but won't regularly bust a man one one. True of a lot of the team. for my money.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

All this POM talk doesn't really make any sense to me. I think blind side flankers are very subjective to each team.

A year ago people called dan lydiate world class.

Tom wood was called world class when on top form.

Tom croft was called world class despite playing very differently to other 6s

SOB was a world class 6 before he started playing 7.

Surely the key to a world class 6 is playing to what your team requires. A good 6 for one team might not fit into the 6 role on another team.

 

[TonyB]

Goode ball in touch

Andy Goode showed a terrific piece of skill against Ireland catching the ball in the air and throwing it back onto the pitch before he touched the ground. The linesman however put his flag up for a lineout. My understanding is that in rugby the ball is only out when it touches something or someone over the touchline that is touching he ground. Was the linesman correct?

Law 19 Definitions

If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Just on this I'd ask is Tuilagi overrated? He reminds me of a Chabal type hype where yes he can do the big bash game etc but in big games against stronger teams he isn't as effective. Like is a guy like JJ (a skillful slippery 13) better for English rugby?

Sorry but Tuilagi was crucial to our 2012 victory against NZ, if there is one player that is effective against big teams it is Tuilagi.

 

[profitius]

How many world 15's do you think POM would get into outside of Ireland?

Any team. The ABs would love him.

I'm not going to waste too much energy arguing with you because I've seen before that you're fairly stubborn.

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Law 19 Definitions

If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

With Goode he must have stepped out before he jumped. It didn't show it on the replay where his foot was.

 

[Jbobo]

Which is why POC and AWJ won IRB Player of the Year in their primes...

I wouldn't put either of them in the All Blacks now truth be told, I'd much rather have Retallick and Whitelock..

To be fair neither did O'Driscoll, Parrise, Adam Jones, Conrad Smith, Pocock, Genia- to name just a few. Many world class players have not won it, so although it is a good indicator that a player is definitely special, it does not mean that there are not other players who are of the same class.

It is difficult to say that you'd replace any All Black players with those from other nations due to their amazing record and talent all round, but still this doesn't mean that there are individuals from other nations who show as much or perhaps more than NZ players. I consider AWJ as Retallick's equal, he is not past his prime, he's probably in it. I'd expect Retallick to push on though as possibly become the best that there has been, potentially.

 

[goodNumber10]

Any team. The ABs would love him.

very doubtful, he doesn't fit their playing style at all - he does for Ireland what their locks do for the AB's.

I'm not going to waste too much energy arguing with you because I've seen before that you're fairly stubborn.

Yes, a reasoned debate and offering counter points is being stubborn.

Here is a question for you and MM then, is Chris Robshaw a world class open side?

By your reasoning his accumulative stats would suggest he is.

 

[nickdnz]

To be fair neither did O'Driscoll, Parrise, Adam Jones, Conrad Smith, Pocock, Genia- to name just a few. Many world class players have not won it, so although it is a good indicator that a player is definitely special, it does not mean that there are not other players who are of the same class.

It is difficult to say that you'd replace any All Black players with those from other nations due to their amazing record and talent all round, but still this doesn't mean that there are individuals from other nations who show as much or perhaps more than NZ players. I consider AWJ as Retallick's equal, he is not past his prime, he's probably in it.

Why are we extrapolating this to 'All Black players?'. The point I disagree with is that those players were better than Retallick in their primes and are now only slightly worse. I just think its rubbish. In their primes they are possibly on par, but Retallick was one of two players pretty unanimously agreed for being the best performing players in the world this year along with Vermeulen. I can safely say I have never considered either of POC or AWJ as ones of the two best players in the world in a given year, despite being very good locks. It was just a bizarre statement to declare those two better (or at least retrospectively better) than the current IRB Player of the Year...who is still only 23 but somehow in his prime. Unfortunately no one outside of Wales seemed to have thought AWJ was nearly the best player in the world last year..

Any team. The ABs would love him.

I'm not going to waste too much energy arguing with you because I've seen before that you're fairly stubborn.

Yep. Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw and Kieran Read dodged a bullet there.

 

[lucky number 7]

First year without O'Driscoll and we've won a grand slam. Great progress in my opinion.

TROLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Hello my Welsh friends. €‹

 

[LiRFCMatt]

First year without O'Driscoll and we've won a grand slam. Great progress in my opinion.

TROLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Hello my Welsh friends. €‹

Hahaha brilliant.

 

[goodNumber10]

First year without O'Driscoll and we've won a grand slam. Great progress in my opinion.

Hold that thought