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[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

England's world class players:
Launchbury

England's "slightly shy of world class" players:
Morgan (strong case to be in with Launchbury though)
Wilson
Lawes
Attwood (although he's doing his best to disprove this, this Six Nations)
Tuilagi
Robshaw
Joseph (potentially)

England's "in theory world class, but needs to bring back the form" players:
Cole
Corbisiero
Brown


Maybe just me, but if he retired tomorrow I'd view him as a great.

Just on this I'd ask is Tuilagi overrated? He reminds me of a Chabal type hype where yes he can do the big bash game etc but in big games against stronger teams he isn't as effective. Like is a guy like JJ (a skillful slippery 13) better for English rugby?
 
I'm like a kid at a candy store with this stat to add. @GN10 POM has been statistically the best flanker in World Rugby since September 2013 at turning ball over at international rugby by something like 6/7 turnovers. Now no this alone doesn't make him world class but fact it shows consistency and add to that he's probably 1 of better line out options we have and very rarely has a bad game. And well he's off his trolley is a bonus.
In my eyes Mike Ross is a class apart too. He is poor for Leinster but in games that really count be it for Leinster or Ireland he does turn up. And well I'll write it here now. Wait until 2/3 years at latest when we see a Henshaw/Ringrose combo in centre. It could embarrass the famous D'Arcy/BOD combo if it delivers on potential.


Not a surprising stat, MM. I also forgot to add that he is a leader too. Not only Captain of Munster but he has been Munsters best player for a number of years now.
 
Robshaw seems to divide opinion. Personally I think he is a good player and does a lot of the unseen donkey work. Every team need players like Robshaw.

He divides opinion because hes not a traditional 7 like a Louw or McCaw and ALOT of people think Steffon Armitage would be better suited to the role moving Robshaw to 6. I don't disagree with them that would be a lot better. However because of it they don't reflect how much work he does for England in carrying, breakdown and tackling.
 
Can't say fairer than that mate.

What I can definitely say is that in the Northern Hemisphere we should all have more robust estimations of are players. With England, more so than any other team perhaps, we hate on a player one week and lavish praise the next - although this is often a function of how strangely inconsistent our players can be. But yes, we describe a player as top class one week and a crapper the next. Its like a sand castle which comes tumbling down. Its somewhat true of Wales as well. I think this stems from the fact that its quite hard to know a players limits unless they clearly, week in week out, perform way over and above the level required. Most don't. So I'd say there's half a dozen England players in the current 23 who are still 'jury's out'.
I think one of Irelands current strengths is knowing to what degree you rate your players and having faith in them. This said, it'd be interesting to see what happens if you ever lose two in a row under Schmidt.

By the way, the criticism of Lancaster I'd say is more about selection; I think he's a good coach, although jury's also out to what extent he does actually coach as opposed to just being a 'team manager' - as discussed on other threads.

You've probably put it into words better than I did. Like you said it's hard to know how good players are unless you see them consistently play, which sometimes that's not the case in the England jersey. True, that is also due to injury but Ireland have been hit just as hard before with injuries, and yet seem to have a more consistent selection.

Just want to point out again this isn't an attack on England, it's obvious they have world class players.
 
He divides opinion because hes not a traditional 7 like a Louw or McCaw and ALOT of people think Steffon Armitage would be better suited to the role moving Robshaw to 6. I don't disagree with them that would be a lot better. However because of it they don't reflect how much work he does for England in carrying, breakdown and tackling.

I think people do understand and consider that Robshaw is an absolute work horse and is strong in those facets but that he suits the blindside much more.
 
Just want to point out again this isn't an attack on England, it's obvious they have world class players.

Fewer than I'd like, you know.

J'nuh's got it right below pretty much. It's arguably just Launchbury right now. However, we have a high number of 'very good' players which is what lends us our depth. Amongst that, I would cite many who have very high ceilings and could be world class but I'm wary of speaking too soon, such as the flakiness of some players.

Munstermuffin - if Tuilagi can learn to fit himself into a team where he's not the only bright light, can learn to distribute, I would say he's world class. That's a large If. But people who say he can only bosh are wrong - he's got skills and a rugby brain. I just want him to reach his potential.

Question for Irish: If its true that Paulie is retiring from international rugby imminently, is there really anyone ready to replace him?
 
I'd agree about Robshaw, get a list of things you traditionally expect a 7 to do and compare Robshaw to that and he will never appear world class. However if you look at it as what does Robshaw offer on the pitch and how good are his performances, I'd say he is one of our most consistent performers and the things he does well, he does very well and consistantly very well. I think he can be considered world class as a player because of that but not necessarily a world class traditional 7.
 
Fewer than I'd like, you know.

J'nuh's got it right below pretty much. It's arguably just Launchbury right now. However, we have a high number of 'very good' players which is what lends us our depth. Amongst that, I would cite many who have very high ceilings and could be world class but I'm wary of speaking too soon, such as the flakiness of some players.

Munstermuffin - if Tuilagi can learn to fit himself into a team where he's not the only bright light, can learn to distribute, I would say he's world class. That's a large If. But people who say he can only bosh are wrong - he's got skills and a rugby brain. I just want him to reach his potential.

Question for Irish: If its true that Paulie is retiring from international rugby imminently, is there really anyone ready to replace him?

Where did you hear this? If it's true, i'd consider it a huge blow before the world cup.
 
Where did you hear this? If it's true, i'd consider it a huge blow before the world cup.

Apologies - could/should have been clearer.
@munstermuffin allegedly has inside information that Paulie won't be playing many more games for Ireland at the Aviva. Mentioned on this thread yesterday afternoon sometime. However, I assumed from that he wouldn't go before the world cup.
 
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Not a surprising stat, MM. I also forgot to add that he is a leader too. Not only Captain of Munster but he has been Munsters best player for a number of years now.

He is a leader but that's 1 thing this Irish team has. POC Sexton Kearney Heaslip POM Best and Healy too (as would Ruddock) all be very capable captains. We are blessed with leadership
 
POC will be going to the world cup. No doubt about that. Rumours in France that he might be going there to see out his career. Noone to replace POC but hopefully Donnacha Ryan will regain fitness. Dan Tuohy is also injured lately.
 
Apologies - could/should have been clearer.
@munstermuffin allegedly has inside information that Paulie won't be playing many more games for Ireland at the Aviva. Mentioned on this thread yesterday afternoon sometime. However, I assumed from that he wouldn't go before the world cup.

It's public knowledge that he is very likely retiring after the World Cup.

Henderson is the most likely to come in. If they can get and stay fit Tuohy and Ryan are options.
 
Apologies - could/should have been clearer.
@munstermuffin allegedly has inside information that Paulie won't be playing many more games for Ireland at the Aviva. However, I assumed from that he wouldn't go before the world cup.

I think it was his very last competitive game in the Aviva. So I assume he'll still be playing in the world cup - would be a huge blow if not. Regards a replacement.. Henderson is a serious talent but me and many other Ulster fans agree his best and most destructive position is at 6. It seems Ireland want to have him at lock which makes sense because our depth there is quite poor. Tuohy is underrated but is injured a lot.

We won't lose much in terms of quality with Henderson. In fact, we would gain a decent bit in terms of carrying and mobility. But as a leader he is going to be extremely hard to replace. Although any of Heaslip, Sexton or Best I'd be happy for captain.

Edit: Forgot about Donnacha Ryan too.
 
Apologies - could/should have been clearer.
@munstermuffin allegedly has inside information that Paulie won't be playing many more games for Ireland at the Aviva. Mentioned on this thread yesterday afternoon sometime. However, I assumed from that he wouldn't go before the world cup.

Regards Tuilagi. I haven't seen him much lately but before injury problems wasn't that the issue. They tried to fit him in wing and all.

Regards Paulie - what I said yesterday knowing him well and on the text of another man who's extremely close to him. That he will retire from Ireland after RWC. He's undecided about Munster as of now. So at end you saw his wife Emily hand Paddy his son to him to go down tunnel as it was possibly last time Paulie may play in Aviva.
It depends on whether Schmidt plays him in the warm up games at Aviva or not. Should add in he will 100% go to RWC if fit.
 
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Donnacha Ryan and Dave Foley will both be international class locks. Toner will be around too. I agree with a lot here. I think Henderson is a fine lock but better as a 6 and can't see him ever being a full time lock as his game is so beneficial at 6 but who knows most great locks have learnt at 6. Donnacha O'Callaghan, Ryan and Mick O'Driscoll here started as 6. Lawes at England another example
 
I'm like a kid at a candy store with this stat to add. @GN10 POM has been statistically the best flanker in World Rugby since September 2013 at turning ball over at international rugby by something like 6/7 turnovers. Now no this alone doesn't make him world class but fact it shows consistency and add to that he's probably 1 of better line out options we have and very rarely has a bad game. And well he's off his trolley is a bonus.
In my eyes Mike Ross is a class apart too. He is poor for Leinster but in games that really count be it for Leinster or Ireland he does turn up. And well I'll write it here now. Wait until 2/3 years at latest when we see a Henshaw/Ringrose combo in centre. It could embarrass the famous D'Arcy/BOD combo if it delivers on potential.

do you have a link to those stats mate?

He's a good player, haven't said otherwise... world class? Not sure of that if we're discounting some of the England guys then i fail to see how POM is World class.
 
Donnacha Ryan and Dave Foley will both be international class locks. Toner will be around too. I agree with a lot here. I think Henderson is a fine lock but better as a 6 and can't see him ever being a full time lock as his game is so beneficial at 6 but who knows most great locks have learnt at 6. Donnacha O'Callaghan, Ryan and Mick O'Driscoll here started as 6. Lawes at England another example
Ryan yes yes yes
I've been mad to see him for ages , he was showing such quality for a time.
Foley I haven't watched much.
Henderson if he applys himself could become one of the best 2nd rows going and with the strength and depth in the Irish back row. POM will have 6 for years and years. 7 will be Sean as long as he can survive then Jordi Murphy I reckon and 8 belongs to Heaslip for the foreseeable future

As for above. Leading the international turnovers for a no.6 , taking into account his tackle count and his usual yardage. Yeah. POM is up there.
 
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Because he dominates the breakdown, is good in the lineout, can carry the ball and is a more talented footballer than most forwards. What 6 has been better in the last 18 months?

Coetzee, Kaino, Leguizamon.....

- - - Updated - - -

Just on this I'd ask is Tuilagi overrated? He reminds me of a Chabal type hype where yes he can do the big bash game etc but in big games against stronger teams he isn't as effective. Like is a guy like JJ (a skillful slippery 13) better for English rugby?

what game has he not dominated the midfield in?

He has had the upper hand on every team (including Ireland) when he's played.

- - - Updated - - -

Fewer than I'd like, you know.

J'nuh's got it right below pretty much. It's arguably just Launchbury right now. However, we have a high number of 'very good' players which is what lends us our depth. Amongst that, I would cite many who have very high ceilings and could be world class but I'm wary of speaking too soon, such as the flakiness of some players.

Munstermuffin - if Tuilagi can learn to fit himself into a team where he's not the only bright light, can learn to distribute, I would say he's world class. That's a large If. But people who say he can only bosh are wrong - he's got skills and a rugby brain. I just want him to reach his potential.

Question for Irish: If its true that Paulie is retiring from international rugby imminently, is there really anyone ready to replace him?

come on mate don't undersell us, i'm the last person to be crowing A, B or C is this and that, but:

Michael Lawes
Tuilagi
and Brown are all world class

Brown was pretty much best 15 in the world for the last 18 months, though he's had a loss of form in the last 6. Lawes is phenomenal, and the most complete lock in the NH as an all round player.

Parling & Corbisiero literally turned an entire test series for the Lions..... i'm sorry but we've got more than people make out.
 
do you have a link to those stats mate?

He's a good player, haven't said otherwise... world class? Not sure of that if we're discounting some of the England guys then i fail to see how POM is World class.

Have collection of them on IRFU database and IRB databases yes and I asked what is world class as in what do you have to do? Can I ask what 6's you think are world class and why exactly they are?
 
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